tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post3226960776447048145..comments2024-03-27T23:47:41.656-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: The FundamentalsStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-35054783303848331272010-04-23T07:47:50.607-07:002010-04-23T07:47:50.607-07:00I found an excellent series of papers on the histo...I found an excellent series of papers on the history of dietary research<br /><br />http://trinkwasser.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/a-short-history-of-nutritional-science/<br /><br />Well worth a read.<br /><br />Does anyone know of a similar paper/s which bring the story up to date?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-12072581912785900722008-12-31T08:20:00.000-08:002008-12-31T08:20:00.000-08:00Well, then we have a different definition of commo...Well, then we have a different definition of common sense.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10249341880323048751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-87411308909560009242008-12-30T02:39:00.000-08:002008-12-30T02:39:00.000-08:00Sven,It is no scientific method. It is called comm...Sven,<BR/><BR/>It is no scientific method. It is called common sense.Juhana Harjuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17054647455809401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-58888780603518877532008-12-30T02:17:00.000-08:002008-12-30T02:17:00.000-08:00Juhana wrote:"There was over 70 percent reduction ...Juhana wrote:<BR/><BR/>"There was over 70 percent reduction in cardiovascular events and mortality in the Lyon Diet Heart Trial compared to the control group. Almost everything has to be done right to achieve that kind of success."<BR/><BR/>What kind of scientific method is that? Wow 70% sounds a lot therefore everything must have been changed to perfection? Lyon is one of the biggest success-stories in diet-trials but that does not mean they created the perfect diet.<BR/><BR/>At Lyon they have done something right. No doubt about that. It´s likely it has something to to with n3 because other trials have shown n3-benefits. On the other hand it´s unlikely reducing butter has been a major contributor because others trials have shown no benefit of reducing sat fat.<BR/><BR/>You think butter is bad because your grandmother ate it and developped heart disease? What you should consider is the possibility that the heart disease of your grandmother had nothing to do to with her diet. Maybe it did, but you can´t be sure.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10249341880323048751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-58121909448882205672008-12-29T08:43:00.000-08:002008-12-29T08:43:00.000-08:00No, you don't. According to Harvard Nurses Study 1...No, you don't. According to Harvard Nurses Study 1 this could be achieved simply by reducing the margarine transfat content into one fourth of the original. (... while, btw, according to the same Harvard animal fats did nothing to CHD risk).<BR/><BR/>According to Harvard every 2 E% of elaidic acid (i.e. 4 grams) equals to doubling of the CHD mortality. And the cheap, much used "butter replacements" of that time had plenty of transfats in them.<BR/><BR/>If I were you, I'd still perform the calculations, based on given omega3, omega6 and saturated fat contents, just to be on the safe side. They are surprisingly informative.LeenaShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09565398001624904475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-38595319797395990382008-12-29T07:56:00.000-08:002008-12-29T07:56:00.000-08:00Sven wrote:"A lot of variables were changed, there...Sven wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>"A lot of variables were changed, therefore you can´t conclude that replacing butter with margarine was the culprit."</I> <BR/><BR/>There was over 70 percent reduction in cardiovascular events and mortality in the Lyon Diet Heart Trial compared to the control group. Almost everything has to be done right to achieve that kind of success.Juhana Harjuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17054647455809401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-84608114392559532032008-12-29T07:10:00.000-08:002008-12-29T07:10:00.000-08:00"I know that many artificial sweeteners can stimul..."I know that many artificial sweeteners can stimulate an insulin response"<BR/><BR/>Actually I have not seen a single study, that confirms this. Anyone?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10249341880323048751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-73894850486573908792008-12-29T07:09:00.000-08:002008-12-29T07:09:00.000-08:00"I am not talking about saturated fat change per s..."I am not talking about saturated fat change per se, but a successful replacement of butter by margarine."<BR/><BR/>A lot of variables were changed, therefore you can´t conclude that replacing butter with margarine was the culprit.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10249341880323048751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-72051096341626563562008-12-29T00:44:00.000-08:002008-12-29T00:44:00.000-08:00MARK: I have been using stevia in my tea. I am a...MARK: I have been using stevia in my tea. I am a type II diabetic. I had been led to believe that stevia was okay for diabetics to use, and had not seen anything (yet) about an insulin response to stevia. I will check out the URL you provide, but if you can point me to any more information I'd be grateful. <BR/><BR/>I know that many artificial sweeteners can stimulate an insulin response (using them will make me hungry again), but if stevia is out, I may have to pretty much give up tea, because I don't like totally unsweetened tea.Pam Maltzmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05351644181383382427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-75449168030667754752008-12-28T13:49:00.000-08:002008-12-28T13:49:00.000-08:00Stephan,I am not talking about saturated fat chang...Stephan,<BR/><BR/>I am not talking about saturated fat change <I>per se</I>, but a successful replacement of butter by margarine.Juhana Harjuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17054647455809401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-48183071442868224842008-12-28T13:44:00.000-08:002008-12-28T13:44:00.000-08:00I can't see how the saturated fat change in Lyon c...I can't see how the saturated fat change in Lyon could have been relevant, given the fact that randomized intervention trials have consistently shown that reducing saturated fat alone has no effect on total or cardiac mortality. <BR/><BR/>An intervention that has been shown to work by controlled trials is improving the omega-6/3 balance. Lyon was unique in that participants reduced n-6 substantially while increasing n-3, which may have added to the intervention's efficacy. The change in saturated fat intake was probably irrelevant.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-32700894904882702502008-12-28T12:32:00.000-08:002008-12-28T12:32:00.000-08:00Have you made the calculations? It seems that they...Have you made the calculations? <BR/><BR/>It seems that they don't match except in the case of partially hydrogenated vegetable fats and fully hydrogenated veg.fats, both of which were common in margarines of those times. If they do, please show me how to get the reported omega3 and omega6 values before and after - without hydrogenated margarines. <BR/><BR/>I have not managed to work that so far with butter and cream. The only solution with reported values is with hydrogenated fats - which had the manmade trans fats, which are known to cause fatal CHD, among other things.LeenaShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09565398001624904475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-57046087704140665132008-12-28T12:14:00.000-08:002008-12-28T12:14:00.000-08:00Leena wrote:"But with that you do not make the cha...Leena wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>"But with that you do not make the changes seen in omega listing, so something else had to be in there do, wouldn't it?"</I><BR/><BR/>The omega-3 fat content of the margarine supplied by the study is higher than the omega-3 content in butter. The subjects were also advised to use rapeseed oil (contains omega-3) along with olive oi. These changes explain the higher omega-3 fats in the intervention diet.<BR/><BR/>At that time it was common to use sunflower oil as a cooking oil. When that is replaced by olive oil and rapeseed oil, as the subjects in the intervention diet did, the linoleic acid (omega-6) content is reduced and oleic acid (omega-9) is increased.Juhana Harjuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17054647455809401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-28536577845131370142008-12-28T11:40:00.000-08:002008-12-28T11:40:00.000-08:00But with that you do not make the changes seen in ...But with that you do not make the changes seen in omega listing, so something else had to be in there do, wouldn't it?LeenaShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09565398001624904475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-36861451462630800642008-12-28T10:37:00.000-08:002008-12-28T10:37:00.000-08:00We don't have to rely on our own reasoning as the ...We don't have to rely on our own reasoning as the changes made have been described in scientific articles:<BR/><BR/><I>"The Lyon Diet Heart Study, a randomized, controlled trial with free-living subjects, tested the effectiveness of a Mediterranean-type diet (consistent with the new AHA Dietary Guidelines) on composite measures of the coronary recurrence rate after a first myocardial infarction. Subjects in the experimental group were instructed by the research cardiologist and dietitian to adopt a Mediterranean-type diet that contained [...] <B>margarine supplied by the study to replace butter and cream</B>. The saturated fatty acid (15% kcal) and oleic acid (48% kcal but 5.4% kcal 18:1 trans) contents in the margarine were comparable to those in olive oil, with the exception that the margarine was higher in linoleic acid (16.4% versus 8.6% kcal) and more so in {alpha}-linolenic acid (4.8% versus 0.6% kcal). Exclusive use of rapeseed oil and olive oil was recommended for salads and food preparation."</I><BR/><BR/>Emphasis JH.<BR/><BR/>Source: Lyon Diet Heart Study. Circulation. 2001;103:1823.<BR/>http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/103/13/1823Juhana Harjuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17054647455809401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-36390294959774998112008-12-28T09:52:00.000-08:002008-12-28T09:52:00.000-08:00Why should it show that? Partial hydrogenation als...Why should it show that? Partial hydrogenation also makes fats saturated. And full hydrogenation makes them even more so.<BR/><BR/>Which is why all margarines and commercial bakery products of old were also rich in saturated fats. So, the butter-to-be-replaced may have been as small as in those poor Finns which made the poor North Karelian (no, actually it happened throughout Finland) heart attack statistics.<BR/><BR/>If I were you, I would make the calculations instead of just arguing. They show better than anything else that the changes shown in Lyon can happen only via change of the partially or fully hydrogenated margarine products.LeenaShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09565398001624904475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-25169966542160625042008-12-28T09:43:00.000-08:002008-12-28T09:43:00.000-08:00Leena,There was also a decrease in saturated fats ...Leena,<BR/><BR/>There was also a decrease in saturated fats in the intervention group. That shows that some butter was replaced with margarine. It should be noticed that the intervention group was also advised to use olive oil or rapeseed oil. The observed decrease in omega-6 fats was probably due to replacement of omega-6 rich vegetable oils with olive oil and rapeseed oil.Juhana Harjuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17054647455809401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-50406448769930838872008-12-28T08:09:00.000-08:002008-12-28T08:09:00.000-08:00To juhana: Actually, replacing butter with rapesee...To juhana: <BR/>Actually, replacing butter with rapeseed margarine was not the major change in Lyon, not even in fats. The main (although quite well hidden) idea was that margarines with plenty of omega-6 and transfats were replaced with a trans-fat free alternative lower in omega-6, while further improving the omega6/omega3 balance with fish oil suplements.<BR/><BR/>This bit of evidence is clearly shown in the omega-6 data of the Lyon study. Replacing butter (or animal any fat) with rapeseed cannot decrease omega-6 content but increases it. And the omega-6 was clearly decreased in Lyon.LeenaShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09565398001624904475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-68328624482069492992008-12-28T07:45:00.000-08:002008-12-28T07:45:00.000-08:00Stephan wrote:"I was just looking at a graph of bu...Stephan wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>"I was just looking at a graph of butter and margarine consumption in the US and the decrease in butter intake and corresponding increase in margarine lines up pretty well with the cardiovascular disease epidemic in the US int he 20th century. It's just an association, but interesting nonetheless."</I><BR/><BR/>How do you explain the results of the Lyon Diet Heart Trial? One of the major changes was that butter was replaced with a rapeseed oil based margarine. This resulted over 70 lower cardiovascular mortality. If a good quality margarine would be an unhealthy choice that kind of result would not be possible. (It is obvious that margarines containing transfats should be avoided.)Juhana Harjuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17054647455809401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-89261000848717689262008-12-26T15:33:00.000-08:002008-12-26T15:33:00.000-08:00Scott W,You bring up many good points. I think on...Scott W,<BR/><BR/>You bring up many good points. I think one thing that's useful to keep in mind is that animal foods don't have to make up the majority of calories. Poor people have been making their diets work for thousands of years by the judicious selection and preparation of starchy tubers and grains, along with limited amounts of nutrient-dense animal foods. I think it's a cultural problem. We've lost our knowledge, our motivation and our time.<BR/><BR/>That being said, of course part of the problem is that we have cheap, convenient processed food in our faces all the time. That stems at least partly from farm bill subsidies that keep prices artificially low on wheat, corn and soybeans.<BR/><BR/>I like some of your ideas. One idea that's already being implemented is breeding oil seeds that are low in linoleic acid, such as high-oleic sunflower oil. We're feeding beef tallow back to cows on feedlots, so we could definitely reclaim that for the deep fryers. I'm definitely all for bringing back full-fat milk. <BR/><BR/>I was just looking at a graph of butter and margarine consumption in the US and the decrease in butter intake and corresponding increase in margarine lines up pretty well with the cardiovascular disease epidemic in the US int he 20th century. It's just an association, but interesting nonetheless.<BR/><BR/>Mark,<BR/><BR/>1) Go for it.<BR/><BR/>2) Industrially processed food is not healthy even if it comes from a nutrition store.<BR/><BR/>3) There have been a few studies on the insulin index of foods. Some protein foods have unexpectedly high insulin indices, most notably dairy protein. You can find it bumping around on the internet if you Google it.<BR/><BR/>Richard,<BR/><BR/>Just took a quick look. They didn't control for linoleic acid. The high-fat diet contained more LA, perhaps as much as 10% total by calories. LA seems to have developmental effects on fat mass, why not appetite? I'd like to see it repeated where they control for the amount of LA and the omega-3 content. Eating industrial lard and vegetable oil as your sole fats will give you a terrible n-6/n-3 ratio.<BR/><BR/>It really annoys me how "high-fat diet" means so many different things in different studies. It seems to me that they adjust the fat composition until they get the result they want, then simply label it as high-fat. Sometimes thay even add sugar to it without mentioning it outside the methods section!Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-17766962830532386512008-12-26T14:25:00.000-08:002008-12-26T14:25:00.000-08:00True, he must be talking about his own grandmother...True, he must be talking about his own grandmother, who would be older than our grandmothers.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-4050827483694634142008-12-26T14:12:00.000-08:002008-12-26T14:12:00.000-08:00Pollan's idea about foods your grandmother wouldn'...Pollan's idea about foods your grandmother wouldn't recognize may need to be taken back a generation for those of us who are younger. I'm realizing, after the last few days spent with my grandmother, that her generation (born in the 20s) spent a lot of time cooking in the 50s and beyond when foods of tradition started being replaced by foods of convenience. <BR/><BR/>Homemade chicken broth was replaced by canned stuff with three kinds of MSG. Good butter turned into a tub of whipped "butter" that's half vegetable oil.<BR/><BR/>Unlike many of her generation, she still shops at a farmers market religiously. But she's definitely internalized some of the marketing about convenience and new food over the last few decades.<BR/><BR/>I wonder what her grandmother would have thought.<BR/><BR/>Debs<BR/><A HREF="http://www.gofrolic.org/gofrolic/food_blog/food_blog.html" REL="nofollow">Food Is Love/Seattle Local Food</A>Debshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09217281333751656056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-79409272096075512602008-12-26T09:11:00.000-08:002008-12-26T09:11:00.000-08:00Stephan:A bit off-topic, but since high-fat and ca...Stephan:<BR/><BR/>A bit off-topic, but since high-fat and carnivory have been discussed vis-a-vis Pollan, what they hey?<BR/><BR/>Someone dropped a comment at my place asking about this study purportedly showing that a high-fat diet during pregnancy sets up the offspring for overeating.<BR/><BR/>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7721438.stm<BR/><BR/>I found the full text:<BR/><BR/>http://tinyurl.com/9kts28<BR/><BR/>I got through some of it and put up a comment in reply.<BR/><BR/>http://tinyurl.com/7g98yn<BR/><BR/>Don't know if you consider any of that worthy of your attention, but since you're the resident neurobiologist, who else would I tell? :)Richard Nikoleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08479556896882145179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-39149939074089231952008-12-26T08:17:00.000-08:002008-12-26T08:17:00.000-08:00First, thank you for the blog, it's a great resour...First, thank you for the blog, it's a great resource that affirms my beliefs behind diet. I have a couple of questions that may have been answered in the past and if so, I apologize for repetition:<BR/><BR/>1. Regarding dairy, I know the more fermented and concentrated sources are recommended like butter and cream but what are your thoughts on organic whole milk and full-fat greek yogurt (or even 2% because Stop and Shop doesn't carry full fat all the time)<BR/><BR/>2. Natural Protein Powder, Optimum Nutrition carries a product that looks pretty natural as it uses Stevia. Just not sure if I should stay away due to the insulin response of stevia and the processing of the whey<BR/>http://www.optimumnutrition.com/products/natural-100-whey-gold-standard-p-202.html?zenid=a31e7b4a69f73fc2e0e6ae84b12b78c1<BR/><BR/>3. Does anyone know of an insulin index as I think this would be more useful than glycemic index (I'm just not sure about fructose).<BR/><BR/>Thank You!Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01712593540150000589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-59817432666089864292008-12-26T08:10:00.000-08:002008-12-26T08:10:00.000-08:00Scott W,You're opening the doors for GINORMOUS pol...Scott W,<BR/><BR/>You're opening the doors for GINORMOUS political discussions here...<BR/><BR/>Guess who pays for that $100,000 heart attack and subsequent disability Mr. and Mrs. Wheat-Belly at McDonald's are going to have?<BR/><BR/>Guess who pays for the un-employment for the children who cannot obtain work after being brain-damaged from poor nutrition/omega-6/refined carbs provided by public school cafeterias and ignorant (though well-intended) parents?<BR/><BR/>-GDr. B Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15451872961651116061noreply@blogger.com