tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post4763408867528664096..comments2024-02-25T02:24:14.972-08:00Comments on Whole Health Source: The Case for the Food Reward Hypothesis of Obesity, Part IIStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-84127521232313685262012-10-04T10:51:54.845-07:002012-10-04T10:51:54.845-07:00Im not academic, trained or particularly knowledge...Im not academic, trained or particularly knowledgeable in the field of nutrition but have a few observations which I think may be relevant.<br /><br />I believe that in some instances junk food can be low in palatability and low reward. Years ago I worked at an all night restaurant at an airport and ate pretty much nothing but junk food for nigh on 3 years. I put a bit of weight on to start with probably as I could eat a bacon sandwich or portion of chips whenever I wanted but soon my weight stabalised. Over time however the food became pretty bland and unappealing and I would often crave fresh fruit and veg as much as a regular person might crave a bag of crisps.<br /><br />Another thing I have noticed is that amoungst many cultures fatness isnt necessarily considered a bad thing, being fat was a sign of wealth and health, if you were fat it meant you were a good hunter or your farm was doing well. Many of my elder relatives would be more shocked if you turned up a family reunion and had lost weight rather than put it on, usually weight loss was a sign that someone wasn't well.<br /><br />Sorry if I have rambled.<br /><br />Gavin<br /><br />Pure Landerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06815164834612285139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-62005111173645028022011-11-21T18:02:54.885-08:002011-11-21T18:02:54.885-08:00Stephan
In regard to your comments about marijuan...Stephan<br /><br />In regard to your comments about marijuana, I know anecdotally that its habitual users find it difficult to eat without it, and that if - for whatever reason - they suddenly stop taking it, they almost entirely lose their appetite and it takes a week or so for it to return to normal.Eudemoniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14280743737592517571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-46815609839751198862011-11-02T16:23:59.344-07:002011-11-02T16:23:59.344-07:00I have enjoyed your blog over a year now; I wanted...I have enjoyed your blog over a year now; I wanted to thank you for your unselfish sharing of your thoughts. so, then, this appears on Bloomberg.com today....<br />http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-02/fatty-foods-addictive-as-cocaine-in-growing-body-of-science.htmlBigWhiskeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08420444056304643922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-63644785079602064462011-10-19T12:30:43.286-07:002011-10-19T12:30:43.286-07:00Stephan,
I'm not sure if anyone has already p...Stephan,<br /><br />I'm not sure if anyone has already pointed this out to you, but it's quickly making it's rounds since being featured on yahoo. <br /><br />http://fit2fat2fit.com/2011/10/month-5-review/<br /><br />As I read his journal about his eating habits as he gained 70 pounds over 23 weeks, I couldn't help think of your current series.Derek Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06094319571930277928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-25281984007961525002011-10-17T20:20:07.589-07:002011-10-17T20:20:07.589-07:00Thank you for your answer. I know the variety exis...Thank you for your answer. I know the variety exists.I am afraid I am bias due to my experience. I personally saw how LC worked exactly the same for 7 people me included . I saw posts on the internet made about the negative LC experience and I trust the people who complained about it, I just never meet such person. It doesn't prove LC is better, but explains my prejudgment. <br /><br />I was on a bland food diet as a child. Remember trying to steal a pickled tomato from the jar while mom was not looking.<br /><br />I read your dismissal of the fat-mother-malnourished child combination in some earlier post and was not convinced because such examples exist all over the world in the groups of poor people living mostly on chip carbs .It is hard to imagine exactly the same past history in each case.<br /><br />It is not necessary to overeat in order to be fat. Your theory is dealing with gluttons eating fast-food. They exists for sure, but it is a more narrow group of people than the group of people who can be helped by LC. Fat mothers in poor countries most probably eating low-reward food already.<br /><br />I share your concern about the consumption of the food designed to produce compulsive eating because it causes disaster for public health. However, I look at it from the side because nor me, nor my family consume it. I also observed the rising propaganda of breakfast cereals, low-fat foods,juices, sugary yogurt-based drinks and rising obesity in Russia especially among children. Fast-food consumption is getting more popular there, not from the children, but from more affluent middle-class adults. For them it is trendy, modern food. They are getting fatter too, of course. People know that fast food is wrong. The more danger for the society is in the under-appreciation of the high-carb foods that are assumed to be healthy.<br />Sorry for the long post, I just want to be understood.Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-9050653758099055692011-10-17T17:53:29.252-07:002011-10-17T17:53:29.252-07:00Stephan,
You are brilliant, and I - along with ma...Stephan, <br />You are brilliant, and I - along with many here - am grateful for your ability to translate very complicated science into a "readable format" ;).<br /><br />My interests lie in prevention of childhood obesity, and my main focus of research and program/product development is on the significant changes that have occurred in the toddler diet over the past 15 years. I have long believed that the transition from a bland puree-based infant diet to today’s highly palatable toddler diet (consisting of rotating ‘kid friendly’ meals and snacks) is the insidious pitfall that most parents fall into. However, in my research into fetal origins of obesity, I am now wondering if this is really just the spark to a fuse already established.<br /><br />I was wondering if you had any thoughts on epigenetic mutations to the D2 receptor genes in the offspring of mothers who consumed a highly processed/palatable perinatal diet. I was most interested in hearing your thoughts on whether or not metabolic programming could be influenced through the fetus’s exposure to these highly palatable foods in humans.<br /><br />It’s hard to deny the parallel trajectories that extreme obesity in children have had with the engineering and marketing of highly palatable foods. 20 years ago, extreme obesity in kids was considered rare, and often the result of a genetic anomaly or a metabolic condition or disease. Yet in the past 15 years, the rates of extreme obesity in children (defined as 200% IBW) have increased at such a fast rate that it is now its own classification (in fact, rates of extreme obesity in children has risen faster than the rates of childhood obesity). <br /><br />I’d be curious for your thoughts, and the thoughts of the many intelligent bloggers on your posts. Thank you!Deirdrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00751780851560880363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-10699842553938649352011-10-17T17:24:27.907-07:002011-10-17T17:24:27.907-07:00Hi Galina,
Low carb suffers from the same problem...Hi Galina,<br /><br />Low carb suffers from the same problem. Why do some people lose fat after reducing carbohydrate, and others gain fat? There is always variability due to individual differences. Variability in the response to LC doesn't make it useless.<br /><br />For GT's example to be a credible challenge to the food reward idea, he would have to provide a detailed before and after account of the diet of that culture. He has not provided that and I don't know where to find it myself.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-59518355823043793272011-10-17T17:13:26.774-07:002011-10-17T17:13:26.774-07:00The main defect in the Food Reword theory is the l...The main defect in the Food Reword theory is the lack of explanation why two individuals affected differently by similar food, like two friends who went on vacation together , eat mostly salads, one lost weight, another gained some; G.T.'s example of emaciated malnourished child and obese mother; a lot of obese individuals who diligently follow calorie-counting recommendation and unable to loose or even gaining weight; an approaching menopause women who had been always able to keep her weight down by eating less, exercising more until she reached 45.<br />There are different reasons why people are fat. Food Reword is explaining behavior a narrow group of foodoholics, mostly Americans, and not world-wide applied. Not all of fat people are binge-eaters, gluttons or even find cafeteria food attractive. Low-carb theory could be applied to more people in a wider range of behaviors and cultures, even foodoholics could be helped.Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-92022772992355852952011-10-16T11:53:36.489-07:002011-10-16T11:53:36.489-07:00Makes sense..when I'm on a diet I fail as I en...Makes sense..when I'm on a diet I fail as I end up not eating enough. Unless I like a food, there's no point me eating. Apparently I don't lose weight as I'm not eating enough calories (not that I eat that many anyway but my body is an idiot and won't respond to anything I do).tracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00391942254968294839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-84112830405540561952011-10-13T20:32:39.817-07:002011-10-13T20:32:39.817-07:00realy gd healt blog. Wil visit again n make coment...realy gd healt blog. Wil visit again n make coment .gd mrningadminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16495852412945050313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-56884658668326721722011-10-13T15:12:39.445-07:002011-10-13T15:12:39.445-07:00Scott Miller,
Completely off-topic, but I just r...Scott Miller, <br /><br />Completely off-topic, but I just read your profile. I can't believe you're the founder of '3D Realms'. I am a huge Duke Nukem fan. Keep em coming man.Robertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13379712882420515799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-25656497195090303082011-10-13T10:59:37.046-07:002011-10-13T10:59:37.046-07:00@Scott:
If gluten grains are addictive, why not j...@Scott:<br /><br />If gluten grains are addictive, why not just eat them alone. One could eat more that way! Right?<br /><br />If the sauce is what makes pasta palatable, this suggests you would not overeat it plain (perhaps not at all?) and would overeat it in a rich (generally caloriewise too) sauce. <br /><br />Funny: My word recognition to post this comment was ... pasta!CarbSanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17739915307890592327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-38950995576770265932011-10-12T19:04:01.625-07:002011-10-12T19:04:01.625-07:00Plain starches may not as highly palatable as some...Plain starches may not as highly palatable as some processed foods, but they are by no means unpalatable to the point of requiring sauces to be palatable, at least to people like me.<br /><br />I used to frequently eat pasta and oats alone. I still eat instant rice alone on an almost daily basis, and I frequently eat bread alone while traveling. Occasionally, I buy potatoes and corn tortillas and eat those alone (after cooking or heating, respectively). And I've seen plenty of other people do the same thing.frhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14980384436598923074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-23950019983419285482011-10-12T15:40:47.013-07:002011-10-12T15:40:47.013-07:00We've known for years that glutens grains are ...We've known for years that glutens grains are addictive by activating opioid brain receptor sites. This makes them especially rewarding, even though grains, on their own, are rather bland. For example, no one eats just pasta alone -- it's always drenched with a delicious sauce to make it palatable.Scott Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05566257717588564927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-78705574975423803872011-10-12T12:53:06.786-07:002011-10-12T12:53:06.786-07:00proud member of the cult of the honeybadger. we do...proud member of the cult of the honeybadger. we don't give a shit!luckybastardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15559027346750047904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-43116112895540688672011-10-12T12:46:49.774-07:002011-10-12T12:46:49.774-07:00"it's obnoxious and culty". ROTFLMFA..."it's obnoxious and culty". ROTFLMFAOAravindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02825772957873406054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-8958182283770076902011-10-12T11:37:19.821-07:002011-10-12T11:37:19.821-07:00It is also a bit less less confusing for the rest ...<b><br />It is also a bit less less confusing for the rest of us to know whom you are addressing.</b><br /><br />Can we get rid of the acronyms like "NADs" and such... it's like a middle-man created by the person writing "NADs" to save time (and maybe write a book with made-up acronyms), but wastes thousands of time for others to decode each time and for those who are new, and also accredited, it's obnoxious and culty. <a href="http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/09/humans-on-cafeteria-diet.html?showComment=1317325771172#c1990998363208902456" rel="nofollow">...</a>rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09851778022532692163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-75741959604710956432011-10-11T17:30:59.855-07:002011-10-11T17:30:59.855-07:00LOL @ Aravind.
Everyone go back and read that for...LOL @ Aravind.<br /><br />Everyone go back and read that for some much-needed levity hereabouts.<br /><br />Cheers,<br />Grass-Fed Moose HunterP2ZRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06156172615124219665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-63506767395818933262011-10-11T12:04:01.362-07:002011-10-11T12:04:01.362-07:00I would like to add my observation about processed...I would like to add my observation about processed food in FR.<br />I live in Stockholm, Sweden. Here we luckily dont have much child obesity (yet) but I have noticed that within my circle of friends and relatives a few kids are way more chubby than they ought to be at age 7 to 11 or so.<br /><br />They eat at home or at school, except possibly once at McDonalds during the weekend. School food here these days are usually "homemade" in the school kitchen, so not too industrialised. Its actually proper food except they use seed oils for practical reasons. Very little fat, no msg or sugar.<br />At school the kids can choose to drink milk, or water only.<br /><br />But heres the thing, I have observed that the chubby kids are without exception served sugary drinks at home, either lemonade or chocolate-sugar in milk.<br /><br />I also see slim kids that drinks a lot of sugar at home, but those usually do a lot of sports. <br /><br />So for kids in Sweden, no processed food is required for chubbiness, sugar alone will do the trick.Niclaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091371906767422546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-71016338444159253262011-10-11T11:56:38.453-07:002011-10-11T11:56:38.453-07:00Again, I would expect a highly-rewarding and highl...Again, I would expect a highly-rewarding and highly-palatable food choice, over the long term would cause a food to lose it's impact from this perspective.... <br /><br />It would no longer be rewarding and your body would be looking for alternative sources to feed that trip it use to have, or simply munch on this food more and more to try and get that fix.Asimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12680880808056066311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-49927651925331579112011-10-11T10:12:19.623-07:002011-10-11T10:12:19.623-07:00“In the research setting, food reward is measured ...“In the research setting, food reward is measured by the ability of food or food-related stimuli to reinforce or motivate behavior (e.g., 1). In humans, palatability is measured by having a person taste a food and rate its pleasantness in a standardized, quantifiable manner, or sometimes by looking at brain activity by fMRI or related techniques (2).”<br /><br /><br /><br />I think it would be extremely useful to keep these two concepts distinct. Food reward in this sense is the outcome of a process which may be outside our conscious control, indeed may be completely unknown to us (except for a few researchers). Palatability, however, lies much closer to the surface, and it seems reasonable that, other things being equal, one might eat more of a more palatable than of a less palatable food. Nevertheless, one would expect sateity to kick in in both cases, and one would expect hunger to be deferred after the larger meal, and no road to obesity. <br /><br />The two puzzles to me are a) why do some foods seem to bypasss the sateity regulator ? and b) why and how are some foods more habit-forming than others ? If a manufacturer could create a habit-forming non-satiating food he could expect commmercial success. <br /><br />However, I have seen completely contradictory reasoning around the blogs, along the lines of: 1) Non-satieting food doesn´t give the gut the nutrients it needs, so the body' response is to eat more (and more). And 2) Habit-forming food is habit-forming because it is nutrient dense, so that our body wants to keep going back to it.<br /><br />The only way to reconcile these two is to posit the existence of foods which fool the body into thinking they are nutricious while at the same time the body knows they are lacking in nutrients. This means we have at least two processes involved, which can interact in a dysfunctional way. I propose we have a choosing brain process based on look, smell, taste, and an evaluation gut process based on actual digestive results. The dysfunctional food reward process becomes:<br />1.gut to brain – we need some more nutrients<br />2.brain – This (fill in anti-food of choice) looks, smells and tastes nutricious, I'll eat it<br />3.gut to brain – we're still short on nutrients<br />4.brain – better eat some more of the same<br />5.gut to brain - we're still short on nutrients<br />etc ad nauseam (literally)<br /><br />How Paleo / Atkins / WAPF etc work then is simply that the foods that are eaten are actually nutricious and trigger sateity at the right point.<br /><br />How Shangri-La etc work is that nutrients are applied without the look, smell, taste evaluation being applied. <br /><br />PS Sorry about the anthropomorphismSteve_Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09741170426828516479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-55992924233555765582011-10-11T09:54:19.946-07:002011-10-11T09:54:19.946-07:00Thank you for communicating such a high quality ar...Thank you for communicating such a high quality article with us. Actually it amounts to a review article. I believe you could publish it (with minor revisions!) in a peer-reviewed journal.<br />Well done!FEDONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00785550640731426701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-44875695954975137362011-10-10T19:59:00.408-07:002011-10-10T19:59:00.408-07:00I apologize for mixing up names. But according to ...I apologize for mixing up names. But according to urban dictionary Steve is short for Steven/Stephen.<br />I didn't realize that he was StephAn, not StephEn.<br /><br />My mistake.Anna K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13888230820928121212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-26647067487052931502011-10-10T12:50:11.573-07:002011-10-10T12:50:11.573-07:00Again, by changing gut flora of a lean rat, with g...Again, by changing gut flora of a lean rat, with gut flora from an obese rat caused the lean rats to become obese. The same is the case with humans.Asimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12680880808056066311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-91362379874135932402011-10-10T12:32:00.958-07:002011-10-10T12:32:00.958-07:00Mr. Guyenet, you stated:"2. Decreasing the re...Mr. Guyenet, you stated:"2. Decreasing the reward/palatability of the diet should cause fat loss in animals and humans that carry excess fat"<br /><br />Seth Roberts of the Shangri-la Diet contends that taking 250-300 kilocalories of a bland substance - water with fructose, olive oil - will lower your body fat set point to drop.<br /><br />It seems to me you both have reached the same conclusion.<br /><br />Question: does the bland substance have to be a liquid or could a solid be as effective?comrade_stalinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075454664838699155noreply@blogger.com