tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post4920660038325188599..comments2024-02-25T02:24:14.972-08:00Comments on Whole Health Source: 60 Minutes Report on the Flavorist IndustryStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-38336437552596710582012-02-22T14:55:27.605-08:002012-02-22T14:55:27.605-08:00Hi Stephan. Here is a veeery interesting Nature ar...Hi Stephan. Here is a veeery interesting Nature article: "Flavor network and the principles of food pairing" -> http://bagrow.com/pdf/srep00196.pdf.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09917531397118353422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-81444038061995312812012-01-01T12:04:46.621-08:002012-01-01T12:04:46.621-08:00High reward, high palatability by themselves causi...High reward, high palatability by themselves causing obesity seems odd terminology at the very least, and an odd idea even then.<br /><br />Surely the phrasing would be that low satiety is the problem.<br /><br />In the Guyenet model, if I understand it, high reward, high palatability lead to low satiety and this causes high intake, which causes metabolic disorders and obesity.<br /><br />I don't see any evidence that low palatability, low reward food is inherently high satiety (i.e. satisfies or reduces appetite). Or that delicious food is low satiety. <br /><br />Part of this is that I do not understand what evolutionary mechanism would drive a creature to indefinitely undereat when it chances on unpalatable food - we would expect it to more aggressively seek out palatable food or if it does reduce its intake to reduce its expenditure. That is an increase in sedentism or appetite.<br /><br />The relatively low obesity cultures (Japan, France) are not stereotypically marked by the presence of food that is unrewarding or unpalatable (rather the reverse) but by food that is satisfying and delicious.<br /><br />You can say, "Ah well, but they don't eat it frequently" but then you have to ask "If good, palatable food being present causes you to want more good food" then why the hell do the eat their good, palatable food less often? Why hasn't their level of food demand risen as high as the USA or the UK, given that these economies almost certainly started from either similar or lower levels of good tasting food in the first place.<br /><br />I mean the idea that "American food that is commonly eaten by the obese is "like sex" in its satisfaction while Japanese and French food eaten by the lean is "unpalatable" ". Does anyone actually find this plausible for a second?<br /><br />And I don't think you can't point to the American Food Industry trying to make satisfying food as a unique problem, as if this was not what food and snack companies in France and Japan try do all the time. Japanese chemists, at the very least, are no slouches in inventing and adding flavour enhancers - Ikuda discovered MSG.<br /><br />You say you've never encountered a "gourmet non-industrial culture". Uh. I've never encountered a gourmet culture period. And to the extent there would be one, I can't imagine it would look like North America or Britain.<br /><br />Also why is it that the fattest people are not the rich, who should have access to the most unlimited access to highly palatable foods (because they have the most disposable income), and certainly not less access to highly palatable foods? I mean, the carbohydrate hypothesis, whatever it's flaws, at least presents the idea that this difference is in place because the poor have access to lower quality food. What is the idea here? Gruel is all that the peasants can take?<br /><br />Saying "People need to eat unpalatable food" cannot be the answer, because unpalatable food is not necessarily satisfying and they will break the diet to eat satisfying food.<br /><br />Taubes model whereby appetite is overstimulated and activity reduced by a metabolic disorder may not be correct, but I don't buy the idea idea that appetite is stimulated mainly or solely by increased palatability and increased sensory qualities of food.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-13637617242952802002011-12-26T08:08:28.354-08:002011-12-26T08:08:28.354-08:00@Aravind
You wrote that overconsume nuts. Since ...@Aravind<br /><br /><i> You wrote that overconsume nuts. Since nuts are mostly fat, not carbs, how do you explain that?</i><br /><br />I figured it out. The nuts I binge on are almonds and cashews, which happen to be significantly higher in carbohydrate than other nuts. Although not as high in carbohydrate as potato chips, I would still put almonds and cashews in the addictive fatty carb food group.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09092073414860334960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-88452216802101061572011-12-20T10:07:38.166-08:002011-12-20T10:07:38.166-08:00i don't know when I am thristy and drink water...i don't know when I am thristy and drink water it is very pleasurable(what does taste have to do with that), considering being very thristy is unpleasurable, and getting enough oxygen is very satisfying and of course when I get enough sleep that is really pleaurable to me.<br /><br />now as for foods that are pleasurable and addictive, I have to say maybe. considering I have been doing a pretty good clip like around 6 or so months of low carb lifestyle as a whole, lost some weight, etc, I find that it takes alot more than taste to make me want something, for example it was not unusual for me to love a chocolate cake with icing at least once a month, usually just before tht time of the month, and for the life of me couldn't break that,I am talking a whole cake not a peice in like two days. <br /><br />now that I look back understanding how my body works I craved it simply because I needed(to lengthy to explain why here) it taste was a less important criteria as far as my body was concerned. since following this lower carb thing (I still would eat fruit if I craved it, or some bread usually sourdough, usually once slice satisfied always buffered with real butter of course, sometimes brown rice but usually a 1/2 cup to a 3/4 cup with my meal was sufficient etc)<br /><br />not saying I have not had bumps in my road, but considering my past dieting or eating thing it has been a real change.<br /><br />but increasing my natural saturated fat (not manmade crap passed off as sat fat) which automatically lowers the gi of any carb you eat, and eating lower carb has stopped all the cake epidisodes and the craving for carb snacks like doritos or chips.<br /><br />yes I am still obese but I am less obese, and the amount I lost (I cant say for sure but at least 20 pounds other people noticed) has not returned even tho my carb cravings increase some every since winter came. but now those cravings have dissapated.<br /><br />my desire for fruit has been null for the past two weeks, about two or so weeks ago I was craving oranges, grapefuit and pineapple in my juicer, but now even that is gone, my desire for the past two days has been for veggies, so taste I believe is second banana to what my body needs and I won't eat something simply because it tastes really good when I am not hungry for it.<br /><br />I believe it is glucose resistance not insulin resistance that is the problem, the cells are not full of glucose but devoid of it, and refusing to take any up simply because it would be cellular suicide to do such a thing without adequate cholesterol calcium etc to handle it. glucose is oxidative like gasoline.<br /><br />anyway the mayo clinic found the best diet that lead to healthy weight loss or rather fat loss was plenty of fruits and veggies with whole dairy. either one alone was not, apparently you need sat fat to absorb the nutrients in the fruits and veggies. <br /><br />so this is where I sit, wishing winter was over. alas must wait a couple of more months, will I survive without pulling my hair out or going into a coma? only time will tell. lol.<br /><br />rosarobrobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08543110396112149963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-88198259355445494582011-12-18T08:38:46.891-08:002011-12-18T08:38:46.891-08:00Hi Stephan,
Just a question really.. a few years ...Hi Stephan, <br />Just a question really.. a few years ago I was nearly a stone lighter and eating then a healthy natural diet. My dietary preferences have not really changed and I appreciate there could be multiple factors playing into this. One dramatic different however is that I have developed a caffeine addiction in last few years. I keep trying to give it up but keep craving it. I am therefore aware that I am in some sort of state of craving or addiction at the moment. Prior to this I had lost interest in food. My question is this.. do you think that being in a state of addiction (from caffeine) is perhaps perpetuating an interest in food / eating more?Catherinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02191829024625376198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-91661679334435203882011-12-14T13:18:56.081-08:002011-12-14T13:18:56.081-08:00@Sarah - thanks for the clarification. I had not r...@Sarah - thanks for the clarification. I had not read your previous comments. Guess I misunderstood :-)<br /><br />Regards,<br />AravindAravindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02825772957873406054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-50460692456322427552011-12-14T12:54:36.644-08:002011-12-14T12:54:36.644-08:00P.S. Re: @David Pier's original link (http://w...P.S. Re: @David Pier's original link (http://www.ajiusafood.com/products/savory-systems/ajimate.aspx)--I love how at the bottom, it says 'Login for more information'. Let the conspiracy theories begin ;)P2ZRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06156172615124219665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-8681296389585438752011-12-14T12:52:46.465-08:002011-12-14T12:52:46.465-08:00@David Pier - Hmm, not sure how that would be qual...@David Pier - Hmm, not sure how that would be qualitatively different from MSG (though I defer to the biochem pros here). I bet it comprises disodium guanylate & co. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disodium_guanylate)--which, by labelling loopholes, allows manufacturers to say 'MSG free' when it has pretty much the same effect. (E.g., do you have MSG sensitivity? If so, these ingredients will likely make you feel the same way.)P2ZRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06156172615124219665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-70438812680024239542011-12-14T12:34:50.119-08:002011-12-14T12:34:50.119-08:00@Aravind - I meant 'proselytizing' and ...@Aravind - I meant 'proselytizing' and 'converting' purely tongue-in-cheek. If you had read any of my previous comments here, you would have seen that I have been eating a low-reward diet for the past few years and believe that there are many advantages to doing so.P2ZRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06156172615124219665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-6881778226891596102011-12-14T11:02:52.760-08:002011-12-14T11:02:52.760-08:00john,
We are built to be satiated by any particula...john,<br />We are built to be satiated by any particular food item in order to seek variety to be what we are . In that sense we can like sugar, fat, salt, alcohol and anything else but be repulsed by it by going over limit and that's normal. And yet if we emotionally get involved with it we can drug ourselves with any of these basic substances. If one decides to use food as a drug , then there is much more possibility for it to become addictive especially if it's novel and the body is not used to it.vladexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03857916359624312122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-55583754425620689602011-12-14T07:39:35.985-08:002011-12-14T07:39:35.985-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05161850700121191487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-71582468442766203282011-12-14T00:44:57.356-08:002011-12-14T00:44:57.356-08:00excellent writer have good mind.congratulation on ...excellent writer have good mind.congratulation on your success........... <br /><a href="http://www.bharatbook.com/detail.asp?id=146311&rt=The-World-Market-for-Sweet-Biscuits-Waffles-Wafers-and-Gingerbread-A-2011-Global-Trade-Perspective.html" rel="nofollow">gingerbread 3.2.6</a>3Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07527746009619367481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-64944674177320676962011-12-13T22:11:47.796-08:002011-12-13T22:11:47.796-08:00nice blog man....CCNA training in chandigarhnice blog man....<a href="www.cnttech.org" title="CCNA training in chandigarh" rel="nofollow">CCNA training in chandigarh</a>jyoti26https://www.blogger.com/profile/10802889005947417504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-90413323309416033072011-12-13T18:18:20.508-08:002011-12-13T18:18:20.508-08:00Explanation of Kokumi, the younger sibling of umam...Explanation of Kokumi, the younger sibling of umami:<br />http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/food/2010/01/the-kokumi-sensation/David Pierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16326578313240027846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-49377076522723810052011-12-13T18:15:54.550-08:002011-12-13T18:15:54.550-08:00Although there is a large part of me that wants to...Although there is a large part of me that wants to try this stuff... (As long as I could know the ingredients)David Pierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16326578313240027846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-72262669254921489732011-12-13T18:07:06.737-08:002011-12-13T18:07:06.737-08:00From the company that first brought us MSG:
http:/...From the company that first brought us MSG:<br />http://www.ajiusafood.com/products/savory-systems/ajimate.aspx<br />"Adds complexity and richness to a range of liquid and dry savory products,including beef,pork and chicken applications.<br />Gives meat sauces greater initial impact,a richer more complex taste and creamier texture.<br />Enhances initial salt impact and overall flavor characteristics.<br />Delivers a rich, lasting taste sensation.<br />Enhances spice derived flavor notes."David Pierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16326578313240027846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-90248238344515379952011-12-13T15:50:35.902-08:002011-12-13T15:50:35.902-08:00@Sarah - I am not proselytizing at all. First of a...@Sarah - I am not proselytizing at all. First of all I am not talking to SAD eaters about this topic. I am an active member of other Paleo forums where this topic comes up. It was very presumptuous of you to state that I am trying to convert anyone. My discussions on this topic are with like minded people as an intellectual debate, nothing more. Not that I need to explain myself to anyone.Aravindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02825772957873406054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-17312158178874704272011-12-13T14:25:36.702-08:002011-12-13T14:25:36.702-08:00@Aravind - Thanks for your 2 cents. You have such...@Aravind - Thanks for your 2 cents. You have such a great success story, but your approach makes me wonder about the success of your err, 'proselytizing'! I haven't tried, but I still imagine that for converting people from SAD, it'd be a lot easier to say, 'you know, you can have food that is at least as delicious [palatable]'. Because as long as they remove the *magically* delicious industrial items (pringles, hohos), they remove a (the?) source of artificially high consumption (no diminishing marginal returns to eating those items). I think this is like 'Level 1' of Stephan's diet outline, and I'm sure food does not automatically become less palatable at that stage--but less rewarding, unless people have vials of Castoreum/its savoury equivalents in their kitchen cabinets.<br />~~<br /><br />Also realized that I previously didn't make the entire point I wanted to make re: fasting and reward. Meant to say that whatever the reward value of a meal, fasting till dinner makes one at least somewhat hungry (even if one does not recognize the hunger till the fast is broken). So the fact that Jay was willing to eat yummy PHD meals every evening doesn't necessarily mean his meal was high reward, but that he was at least mildly hungry by dinnertime, which made the food taste good (back to my earlier point about the context of reward and ordinal vs. cardinal reward 'value').P2ZRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06156172615124219665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-7834737236122016932011-12-13T00:59:19.179-08:002011-12-13T00:59:19.179-08:00Stephan, I appreciate your frustration. May I ask ...Stephan, I appreciate your frustration. May I ask how you view Lustig's views on insulin's role in obesity?<br /><br />In particular, Lustig seems wholly convinced that insulin plays a primary causal role in obesity (see this 15 min interview here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8dWNbEscOw )<br /><br />I've read your critique of the carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity and found it very illuminating, but do you think that giving any weight to the insulin hypothesis is a tenable position?<br /><br />Also you should understand that I am a casual observer here, with no vested interests or deep expertise in this area.Marwan Daarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03470166681040140870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-72955294516196675582011-12-12T20:26:01.656-08:002011-12-12T20:26:01.656-08:00Where could I read more about the following statem...Where could I read more about the following statement? . . . "Hundreds of years ago, obesity (and its co-morbidities) was restricted almost exclusively to the royalty in Europe."R. K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12869329191957913523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-62453994025646155212011-12-12T17:13:00.957-08:002011-12-12T17:13:00.957-08:00@Sarah - you wrote "Reward probably tracks pa...@Sarah - you wrote "Reward probably tracks palatability quite well for 'normal' food stimuli, but what is perhaps most interesting is when reward and palatability diverge"<br /><br />I agree with this. To be clear, I am not suggesting palatability isn't relevant. Far from it. I was only suggesting the removal of it in the discussion because I think some people are struggling with the definition reward. When people say "I've lost weight and my diet is palatable", they are missing the boat.<br /><br />I also understand that Stephan uses the term palatability because the studies he has cited (many of which I've read) also use this terminology. <br /><br />I have spent a fair bit of time discussing reward with people and I have found by not approaching it from the palatability angle initially, the concept makes more sense to them. The example I typically give is beer - virtually no one likes beer the first time they drink it, but the behavior to (over) consume it is reinforced based on its rewarding properties. <br /><br />Anyway, my 2 cents. <br /><br />Regards,<br />AravindAravindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02825772957873406054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-82017328186215862472011-12-12T13:09:25.309-08:002011-12-12T13:09:25.309-08:00Hi vladex,
You said "Higher palatability lea...Hi vladex,<br /><br />You said "Higher palatability leads to higher satiation". This is the opposite of what has been observed in every study I'm aware of. Higher palatability leads to lower satiation and higher within-meal food intake. <br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10386914<br /><br />The mechanism of this is at least partially understood: opiate signaling in the striatum, which is known to reduce satiation and increase meal size. Opiate signaling is one of the main mechanisms of hedonic valuation.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-31640615164411198712011-12-12T12:57:50.919-08:002011-12-12T12:57:50.919-08:00I'm beginning to think we should think of rewa...I'm beginning to think we should think of reward 'value' as ordinal rather than cardinal. In an extreme enough context, any food that is normally rewarding can become completely unrewarding (e.g., if one has just been force-fed five whole pizzas); and conversely, any normally unrewarding food can become rewarding if one, say, has been subjected to true starvation.<br /><br />In the case of Jay Wright's wonderful weight loss journey (featured on PHD blog), I submit that Jay would have lost less weight if he had had, e.g., @spughy's amazing culinary skills at his disposal. Whatever the reward value of the diet Jay implemented, I think we could agree that it would have been higher reward if he could have gotten spughy to cook for him, in generous enough portions so that he would have stopped when he wanted and not when the portion was done (i.e., ad libitum). He probably would have eaten more and lost more slowly. So wrt. weight loss, our question becomes, "What is the 'right' level of consumption?" Is it one of moderate-low reward, with a given level of ad lib intake; or is it higher reward, with a concomitantly higher intake? Too drastically reducing reward would likely lead to problems with compliance; having negligible reduction in reward would likely lead to problems in moderating intake.<br /><br />Stephan and others have floated the idea that fasting is the 'ultimate low-reward diet'. Theoretically, this makes sense, and if we take it as true (at least for people who fast successfully), then it seems that whatever the reward value of Jay's diet, it was modulated downward by the daily IF. While Jay mentioned that the fasting was far from painful, 'easy' is not the same as 'spontaneous'--the fasts were deliberately structured into his diet plan. It was not that Jay's meals were 'so rewarding' (per PAUL'S definition here) that Jay simply 'forgot' to eat every day till dinner; the abstaining from meals was a conscious choice--one that lowered the total reward value of his daily food intake.<br /><br />@Aravind - I have followed your story and comments with interest, but I strongly disagree that we should do away with the notion of palatability, even in blog discussions. Reward probably tracks palatability quite well for 'normal' food stimuli, but what is perhaps most interesting is when reward and palatability diverge.<br /><br />Stephan said, "Any diet that restricts many or all of the classic hyperpalatable foods: pastries, cookies...etc., is a reduced reward/palatability diet." This statement reinforces my belief that we are humoring researchers in their use of 'reward-slash-palatability' as an umbrella term, until we can elucidate the factors that make a food more rewarding than palatable, and vice versa. A diet that reduces/eliminates junk may not be lower palatability (if you or the better half is a true gourmet)--but without flavorist-created ingredients, it is almost certainly lower reward.<br /><br />Thanks everyone for the thoughtful and thought-provoking discussion :)P2ZRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06156172615124219665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-85980145025084636812011-12-12T12:56:09.868-08:002011-12-12T12:56:09.868-08:00It is simply not plausible that higher palatabilit...It is simply not plausible that higher palatability would lead to lower food intake. <br />===============================<br />Higher palatability leads to higher satiation. You can't talk about palatability without talking about satiation Fruits are palatable and satiating . Eating green vegetables without any additions is not that palatable and it's not satiating. I fail to see any natural food item that is palatable but not satiating in great measure so this theory isn't standing up well and I am not sure why you push it and if anything it takes away from your argument with Taubes<br />Just because C/IH is totally flawed doesn't make "palatability" theory any better. <br />On the other hand , processed food items can't even count. People eat that when they are desperate or distracted and it's filled with ingredients made on a leftover factory floor that is completelly foreing to a human digestive system.vladexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03857916359624312122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-62943354285079394332011-12-12T12:38:23.820-08:002011-12-12T12:38:23.820-08:00Hi Asim,
Adding a bag of Doritos to lunch every d...Hi Asim,<br /><br />Adding a bag of Doritos to lunch every day will not reduce reward/palatability or body fatness. Eating nothing but Doritos for an extended period of time probably would, but I wouldn't recommend it!<br /><br />Hi Marwan,<br /><br />If I appear to be entrenched, it is only because the more I read in the scientific literature, the more strongly I feel the food reward hypothesis is supported. I have provided many lines of evidence to support that position, and I feel that I have interpreted the literature faithfully, completely and from a position of knowledge. The value of the FRH is plainly obvious to people who are familiar with the relevant research, because so many mutually buttressing lines of evidence support it, and for that reason it is pretty much taken as a fact among obesity and food psychology researchers. That it lines up nicely with common sense helps as well. <br /><br />I appreciate your idea, but I don't see the value of engaging Taubes further. He has intellectually isolated himself from the research community, and he continues to refuse to alter his wrongheaded ideas on obesity in the face of mountains of contradictory evidence, or even acknowledge that such contradictory evidence exists and is relevant. I can't change Taubes's mind, and I don't think anyone can.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.com