tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post5450644018540082637..comments2024-03-27T23:47:41.656-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Two Great Quotes About Obesity (technical)Stephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-33224393443582504242012-08-14T15:36:52.227-07:002012-08-14T15:36:52.227-07:00I feel smarter already. It's so refreshing to ...I feel smarter already. It's so refreshing to come across a blog that is so intellectually fueled and devoid of flashy illustrations, paid placements, and giveaways. I am a food advocate in that I often tell people that what you eat effects all aspects of your being. Thank you for writing this blog, and fueling such beautiful conversation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-12042612366079246012012-08-12T08:52:00.524-07:002012-08-12T08:52:00.524-07:00Here's the link to the above study: http://www...Here's the link to the above study: http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document//Volume_94_1985/Volume_94,_No._4/Carious_lesions_in_permanent_dentitions_of_Protohistoric_Easter_Islanders,_by_D._W._Owsley,_p_415-422/p1Go Meat!https://www.blogger.com/profile/12229943291883990671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-29221054461296009442012-08-12T08:51:18.981-07:002012-08-12T08:51:18.981-07:00Hey Stephan, I was reading Jared Diamond's boo...Hey Stephan, I was reading Jared Diamond's book Collapse and was interested by his comment that the people of Easter island--who by the way ate an extremely bland, high carbohydrate diet--had a lot of cavities. After doing research, I ran into a paper online entitled "CARIOUS LESIONS IN PERMANENT DENTITIONS OF PROTOHISTORIC EASTER ISLANDERS." Though they did have a lot of cavities, they did also lack fresh water and have to drink "sugarcane water." I wonder how their cavities would change if they did not eat sugarcane.Go Meat!https://www.blogger.com/profile/12229943291883990671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-30839813813767253782012-08-08T13:19:36.442-07:002012-08-08T13:19:36.442-07:00@ Charles L. Peden,
I think I can see where some ...@ Charles L. Peden,<br /><br />I think I can see where some extra pounds might be regained.<br />Carbohydrate refeeding after ketosis results in 150% repletion of glycogen. So one-and-a-half times as much carb-related water retention as usual. But this would not last; glycogen would normalise as the extra is used up.<br />Lucas Tafur shows how it can be done; <a rel="nofollow">http://www.lucastafur.com/2011/04/extra-glycogen-de-novo-lipogenesis-and_04.html</a>Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-279302071058033392012-08-08T03:20:36.457-07:002012-08-08T03:20:36.457-07:00Great point you make there. good POST.. I like you...Great point you make there. good POST.. I like your perspective on this subject.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00246117046766761235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-70377149767474557122012-08-08T02:27:45.985-07:002012-08-08T02:27:45.985-07:00Razz
Shoudl fabuluos slaesmen ungreatful commentn...Razz<br />Shoudl fabuluos slaesmen ungreatful commentn perosnal dealign thoguht doinbg thsn shos snkarky. <br /><br />You're growing on me. I do hope Stephan doesn't kick you out.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-75548648683921590452012-08-07T20:04:07.750-07:002012-08-07T20:04:07.750-07:00I thought in the hypothetical case we are thinking...I thought in the hypothetical case we are thinking about a body, not a person; a metabolic economy.<br />and compensation (set point, if you like) relates to what the body does with the calories it does take in.<br /><br /><br />If a mother has starved in her childhood, the baby gains weight more easily. But the baby has no memory of the mother starving and no desire to compensate for it. It may not even eat any more than any other baby.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-87848426241670181552012-08-07T19:47:23.669-07:002012-08-07T19:47:23.669-07:00George,
I lost 20 lbs. on a water fast. When I r...George,<br /><br />I lost 20 lbs. on a water fast. When I resumed eating I did not "overcompensate" by eating 70,000 additional calories too much in 6 days to gain all that weight back.<br /><br />Also, where in that link did Ned Kock say he controlled his calories?Charles L. Pedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00950266177055133918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-38891630328501992382012-08-07T14:05:52.799-07:002012-08-07T14:05:52.799-07:00Subject overcompensates for extreme reductions in ...Subject overcompensates for extreme reductions in caloric intake, but is less likely to overcompensate for slight reductions and may not compensate at all if weight loss is gradual. <br />See <a href="http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.co.nz/2010/07/my-transformation-i-cannot-remember.html" rel="nofollow"> Ned Kock's story</a>.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-61211936784734879692012-08-07T08:33:55.623-07:002012-08-07T08:33:55.623-07:00I've noticed something odd and I wonder if it ...I've noticed something odd and I wonder if it is related. I have done 4 extended water fasts. The first one produced the fastest weight loss and slowest weight recovery. The weight recovery on this last fast was quicker than I have ever experienced.<br /><br />It is as though my body is learning how to react to a fast by slowing down weight loss and recovering more efficiently. Although it is understood that the brain learns, I cannot shake the idea that the entire body is actually learning and adapting. This is obvious when we are talking about responding to an infection or temperature, but it seems to also become more efficient at dealing with pattern absence then presence food.<br /><br />Imagine that we are psychology students. Our experimental subject is a body that has learned how to get efficiently fat. Our professor has asked us to teach it to be efficiently lean.<br /><br />Some things we have observed about our subject:<br /><br />1. Subject seems to become more efficient at retaining fat when deprived of food for periods of time.<br /><br />2. Subject seems to maintain its fat composition by favoring certain foods.<br /><br />3. Subject seems to grow more sedentary in proportion to their size.<br /><br />4. Subject seems to limit caloric intake (they do not consume calories until they asphyxiate).<br /><br />5. Subject is not gaining as much weight as the dietary fat they are consuming indicating they are burning some fat as fuel.<br /><br />What are some other observations you guys have noticed?Charles L. Pedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00950266177055133918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-35703716600463910402012-08-07T07:49:53.372-07:002012-08-07T07:49:53.372-07:00The information contained at my blog about obesit...The information contained at my blog about obesity is of the HIGHEST QUALITY. There are no cranks involved.There are many disgruntled uneducated crackpots who cannot deal with this.<br /><br /><br />My blog contains lectures from Dr. Jeffrey Friedman, Dr. Michael Rosenbaum Dr. Rudolph Leibel, Dr. Douglas Coleman<br /><br />I shoudl charge A LOT of money for my blog to access such fabuluos lectures. Why not?Internet slaesmen are ripping off the public with nonsense<br /><br /><br />. I have done A LOT for the ungreatful public FOR FREE. Most people are stupid lowest common denominator types. That is the reality. Most Internet poeple are not able to be educated.<br /><br /><br />My commentn was NOT AT ALL a perosnal attack on you. WHY the response. Remember, you're dealign with RAZWELL here.<br /><br />Eating in the absense of nutritional need says to me MINDLESS EATING or HEDONISTIC eating.<br /><br />How is that in ANY WAY an attack on you?<br /><br />Your reply makes no sense at all. I am PUZZLED. I was not in any way attacking you. I was explaining what I thoguht the Dr. Meant in his study using that expression. I have not looked into it though. it was a guess.<br /><br /><br />If you want to play the game of not being polite , you won't win.<br />I have a request Jane. Stop the insults. Educate yourself a little. Stop reading Internet gurus.<br /><br />Lastly, what are you doinbg AT ALL thinking about me and a banning?How is that your place?<br /><br /><br /> I am only "unpopular" to CRANKS.<br /><br /><br />A wise man taught me a LONG time ago that you should NEVER engage a scammer. They will drag it into the dirt.<br /><br />Obesity is HELLISHLY DEEP Jane. Look beneath the surface. I do not understand why you critique world renowned scientists unfavorably and THINK you know more thsn Leibel and Friedman whose research shos:<br /><br />When it comes to body weight- the body completely has a MIND OF ITS OWN.<br /><br /><br />Your snkarky reply was UNCALLED for Jane. You owe me an apology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-74284276969091871422012-08-07T04:23:37.707-07:002012-08-07T04:23:37.707-07:00You know, Jane, R A Z Z Honey has taken a leaf fro...You know, Jane, R A Z Z Honey has taken a leaf from the Duchess' Cook's little boy' book:<br /><br />" . . . . . . .<br />he only does it to annoy<br />because he knows it teases."<br /><br />Most of us, like Ol' Man River "got sick o' tryin'."<br /><br />But, Good Luck with that.<br /><br />SlainteLeonRoverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01484097018449402128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-45555265502787824752012-08-07T03:12:01.665-07:002012-08-07T03:12:01.665-07:00Hi RAZZ
I have a request. Please could you stop u...Hi RAZZ<br />I have a request. Please could you stop using all those capitals, check your spelling, and start thinking a bit before you write? Having a conversation with you is very frustrating because I feel you are not listening to what I say. I understand you are rather unpopular in the blogosphere, and I'm not surprised. If you go on like this, eventually Stephan will have no option but to ban you. Sorry Stephan if I'm wrong. <br /><br />Anyway RAZZ, I completely disagree with you. What do you think 'mindless eating' is if not the action of an addict? I never do it, and that's not because I'm forcing myself to be virtuous. I would have to force myself to do it. <br /><br />I do not eat empty calories, and it is my belief that this is why I am not an addict. 30 years ago when I was eating empty calories, I had precisely the uncontrollable cravings I associate with addiction. My body needed microntrients, it really is as simple as that. <br /><br />Berthoud would be very stupid to talk about this, because that's what I did and I got booted out of my Oxford college fellowship for it. There are powerful vested interests at work here.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-18742135000899537662012-08-06T23:56:07.490-07:002012-08-06T23:56:07.490-07:00Thank you guys for the feedback. I understand wat...Thank you guys for the feedback. I understand water/glycogen would account for some of it. But 20 lbs.? <br /><br />Let's assume you are correct. Then what you are suggesting sounds like obesity is a problem of edema with fat storage as a side effect. Edema is known to get worse the larger an obese person becomes.<br /><br />Since my fat cells were basically untouched by the 20 lb. weight loss, my body's stores of water and glycogen soaked up the water and carbohydrates from my meals. It would be akin to wringing out and then re-soaking a sponge. <br /><br />Caloric restriction would wring out the "sponge", but the moment it is stopped the "sponge" fills back up and the edema returns. When the edema returns the fat storage returns. How?<br /><br />I think we can all agree that my caloric requirement was reduced after losing 20 lbs. But it went back up after gaining 20 lbs. It stands to reason that the edema increased my caloric requirement and caused me to eat more (this is also EXACTLY what happened--I started to eat more AFTER completely regaining the weight, not before).<br /><br />So something FIRST seems to be causing weight gain (probably water weight gain). The additional weight increases the caloric requirement. The increased caloric requirement then causes people to eat more. Eating more THEN leads to fat being stored.<br /><br />So the process probably starts with water weight gain. This would point suspicion on carbohydrates, salt/potassium balance, hormones, and other possible suspects that affect fluid osmolarity (a subject which I find discouragingly complicated).<br /><br />The complexity of this problem is obviously WAY deeper than it first would seem.Charles L. Pedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00950266177055133918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-8738393054349758752012-08-06T15:33:52.089-07:002012-08-06T15:33:52.089-07:00I agree with you, Charles. Calories are not the on...I agree with you, Charles. Calories are not the only thing. There is a lot the claoric hypothesis cannot explain. There are MANY contradictions in the REAL WORLD.<br /><br /><br /><br /> I had a few friends who were seriously sick and got major diseases. My friend Kevin lost massive amounts of weight, but he was eating only a little less. How much he ate ABSOLUTELY COUD NOT explain why he was SO thin. He was thinner than Michael jackson at his worst and a little taller.Kevin probably ate enough to be 170 pounds, but only weighed 120. <br /><br />Thankfully today he is back. But it did NOT happen when he ate MORE.<br /><br />It happened when he GOT HEALTHIER. He always was trying to gain but could NOT. His claoric intake did NOT change. He ate the smae , but fater the years passed he GRADUALLY got back to 175.<br /><br />True story and very valid.<br /><br />There is SO much more to it than calories. <br /><br /><br />In "Why Thin People Are Not Fat" over feeding experiment was one. This Asian guy ate 5,000 calories a day- a huge surplus, but gained very little weight- almost all of t was muscle.<br /><br />He actually looked BETTER doing this over the course of the study. LOL !<br /><br />Take care, Charles :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-90172200401396425502012-08-06T15:30:23.632-07:002012-08-06T15:30:23.632-07:00Charles L. Peden,
Can you really lose 20lbs of wa...Charles L. Peden,<br /><br />Can you really lose 20lbs of water in ketosis? Surely not.<br />If you burned the energy you would normally have eaten this would be about 4-6 pounds. I would say you burned considerably more.<br /><br />You might find this post interesting.<br /><a href="http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/the-14-percent-advantage-of-eating.html" rel="nofollow">http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/the-14-percent-advantage-of-eating.html</a>Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-25454295555073726382012-08-06T14:17:36.688-07:002012-08-06T14:17:36.688-07:00Hi Charles,
Travis is right: this is not an unusu...Hi Charles,<br /><br />Travis is right: this is not an unusual phenomenon. The weight you lost was mostly water, which is why you were able to lose it and regain it so quickly. Eliminating salt from the diet and its associated water, not having a gut full of digesting food, and losing several pounds of hydrated glycogen due to carbohydrate depletion together account for the large majority of your weight loss.<br /><br />I hope you'll agree that you can't gain 70,000 calories of fat (20 lbs worth) by eating 12,000 calories of excess food over 6 days (assuming a high total kcal intake of 3500 a day with 1500 kcal daily going toward basal metabolism and therefore 2000 per day available for storage).Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-36956275602272818932012-08-06T12:20:16.797-07:002012-08-06T12:20:16.797-07:00Charles: You are assuming that all of the weight l...Charles: You are assuming that all of the weight lost was fat, when it was actually mostly water. You would have lost those few pounds that you were down afterward in fat and the rest was due to glycogen depletion and lowered sodium intake. I lose 5 lbs in the couple days after I stop eating restaurant food and gain it back when I eat it again. If I weren't a slight 150 pounds the % difference would be far more substantial. <br /><br />The fat that people carry around cannot be manufactured without excess energy.Travis Culphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02611059005476928227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-26348628576767420572012-08-06T11:03:52.657-07:002012-08-06T11:03:52.657-07:00Here is a curious puzzle:
I went on a fast to los...Here is a curious puzzle:<br /><br />I went on a fast to lose 20 lbs. It took me 7.5 days. At the end of the fast I ate two meals per day. Each meal consisted of very normal portions of food. In 6 days I gained all of the weight back. According to calorie theory I would have had to have eaten an equal amount of calories to match my daily metabolic expenditure PLUS enough calories to gain 20 lbs. in 6 days. If anyone is under the delusion that gaining 20 lbs. in 6 days is likely due to caloric consumption, I invite them to try such a feat.<br /><br />After regaining the 20 lbs., my weight dropped back a couple pounds and pretty much stabilized for the next month eating two meals per day. Calorie theory would have required that I eat an impossible amount of food (for me) to regain that weight in 6 days.<br /><br />If someone wants to fast long enough to lose 20 lbs. and carefully track their calorie intake after the fast, they can verify that calories alone do NOT explain the weight gain. There is something much more complex going on. Although food reward certainly explains why we prefer certain foods over others, it does not explain why we weigh what we do.<br /><br />Food reward explains why we choose our source of calories.<br /><br />Calories alone do not determine our weight.<br /><br />Therefore, food reward alone does not determine our weight.Charles L. Pedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00950266177055133918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-73464810041674379492012-08-06T08:04:47.971-07:002012-08-06T08:04:47.971-07:00Hi, Jane
I think Dr. Berthoud meant "mindles...Hi, Jane<br /><br />I think Dr. Berthoud meant "mindless eating" when we're not truly hungry and have no real need for nutrients. The kind people might do in front of a computer or a T.V.or out of boredom etc. Doing this wil all calories is not helpful, but it is especially bad to do it with empty calories.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-50344969943304959642012-08-06T06:27:01.613-07:002012-08-06T06:27:01.613-07:00Here's another quote from the Berthoud paper.
...Here's another quote from the Berthoud paper.<br /><br />'Palatability is clearly one of the main drivers of food intake and it can lead to the development of obesity in susceptible individuals. .. [but] energy-dense foods that are high in sugar and fat, and low in vitamins and minerals (also called empty energies), may be a more important factor. Foods such as this may be addictive.'<br /><br />So Berthoud thinks palatability may be less important than empty calories, which might be addictive. But then he talks about 'eating in the complete absence of nutritional need'. I suspect he hasn't thought this through properly. Obviously, there IS a nutritional need, for the nutrients removed from the empty calories. If the brain needs these nutrients to make its owner stop eating, empty calories would be addictive.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-24658171207991386512012-08-06T02:49:08.596-07:002012-08-06T02:49:08.596-07:00@Rob Roy
There is something else you could try. M...@Rob Roy<br />There is something else you could try. Make your own baked goods, using only unrefined ingredients. Wholemeal flour, dark brown sugar, unrefined dark chocolate and butter. Nothing refined or artificial at all. You may not like the result, but it won't be as bad as no baked goods at all. You could try eating so much you feel sick. I think this is called aversion therapy. The point is that if it's unrefined, it can't do you any harm.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-27359685083775055822012-08-05T20:31:59.454-07:002012-08-05T20:31:59.454-07:00Me too!
I chain-smoked for years yet quit on a whi...Me too!<br />I chain-smoked for years yet quit on a whim every so often without a second thought.<br />There was appetite for tobacco, which was all or nothing, but no withdrawal symptoms or cravings whenever I stopped. Ever.Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-10585465139107337552012-08-05T20:23:10.946-07:002012-08-05T20:23:10.946-07:00@George Henderson,
I am one of people who was unab...@George Henderson,<br />I am one of people who was unable to get hooked on nicotine when I used to smoke while being young.Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-66889427926441641272012-08-05T16:14:13.664-07:002012-08-05T16:14:13.664-07:00I've posted a new theory about vitamin K2, sta...I've posted a new theory about vitamin K2, statins, and memory loss <a href="http://hopefulgeranium.blogspot.co.nz/2012/08/why-might-statins-cause-memory-loss-and.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>Puddleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00953398103675945541noreply@blogger.com