tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post5632859697823606493..comments2024-03-27T23:47:41.656-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Malocclusion: Disease of Civilization, Part VIIIStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-91608394840429736012014-05-30T09:25:58.751-07:002014-05-30T09:25:58.751-07:00Malocclusions are corrected primarily for aestheti...Malocclusions are corrected primarily for aesthetic and psychologic reasons. However, in some cases, treatment may increase resistance to caries, to anterior tooth fracture, and, possibly, to periodontal disease or stripping of the gingiva on the palate. Treatment may improve speech and mastication as well. <br /><a href="http://www.skeltonorthodontics.com/skelton/" rel="nofollow">Thomas E. Skelton, DDS, MS</a><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763552294210708010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-59738189308512674922009-12-03T12:56:31.436-08:002009-12-03T12:56:31.436-08:00Thanks for all the work Stephan.
Just as an aside...Thanks for all the work Stephan.<br /><br />Just as an aside, I have a friend whose great grandfather just died at 109 in west virginia. Diet consisted mainly of vegetables from his garden in large quantity, grass fed beef, pastured eggs and chicken meat, and wild game he shot. He also ate toast every morning (store bought bread).zachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05334525584242029389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-62324315997812665932009-12-02T17:19:56.582-08:002009-12-02T17:19:56.582-08:00I'm taking a middle way on grains. Not a lot,...I'm taking a middle way on grains. Not a lot, and sprouted, soaked, or fermented when I do.<br /><br />Eating sprouted or sourdough bread is a really different experience for me than regular bread, cereal or pasta. I looked up fermentation's effects on wheat and if the fermentation is long enough it can break down almost all of the gliadin and a lot of the fructose, too, for what it's worth. <br /><br />One thing I couldn't find any info about was fermentation's effect, if any, on wheat germ agglutinin, another suspected bad guy. <br /><br />I am curious as to what it is about wheat that is suspected to cause an increase in vLDL. Is it just the carb load it contains, since a carb-heavy diet does the same thing? If so, can this be ameliorated by sticking to whole grains (slowing absorption among other possible factors), or by combining it with other things in one's diet, and simply not overdoing it?<br /><br />A while ago I looked up wheat germ agglutinin and vLDL on PubMed, and the only information I could find were studies concluding that wheat germ agglutinin and/or wheat bran *lowered* vLDL (while leaving other lipids unaffected). If anyone is interested I'll try to find it again. <br /><br />For me, I believe I am somewhat gluten intolerant, and went wheat-free for several years. It wasn't a health revolution for me, although it helped some things. I feel healthier now, eating some wheat, but making sure it's real sourdough bread. If it's not, gastric distress quickly ensues, and who knows what else.Helenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14504810823521044641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-89494232966966587342009-12-02T16:23:53.612-08:002009-12-02T16:23:53.612-08:00Stephan
Seems to me that the grains question woul...Stephan<br /><br />Seems to me that the grains question would make a very good research topic for your blog. I have stopped eating grains and am very suspicious of them.<br /><br />There are some that think that grains that are prepared in a healthfull way like soaking, spouting etc. will remove the problems with grains. But just removing some of the antinutrients doesn't address some of the other problems. Some of the problems are, a high GI index,large Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio, potential to cause autoimune problems, possibility of raising small LDL(wheat) and Acid forming.<br /><br />If you look it the whole picture, it seems that an excess of grains in one's diet could be very bad indeed.LPaForLifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06538956496901182543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-38937630768706614892009-12-02T16:02:11.762-08:002009-12-02T16:02:11.762-08:00Thanks Stephan
I have just found this paper that ...Thanks Stephan<br /><br />I have just found this paper that has some useful info.<br /><br /><br />Live probiotic Bifidobacterium lactis bacteria inhibit the toxic effects induced by wheat gliadin in epithelial cell culture<br />K Lindfors,* T Blomqvist,* K Juuti-Uusitalo,* S Stenman,* J Venäläinen,† M Mäki,* and K Kaukinen‡<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2453197/<br /><br />Maybe some are just less susceptible because of digestive and dietary factors.<br /><br />It appears at least in the test tube that gliadins do affect gut permeability.<br /><br />"The toxicity of gliadin and gliadin peptides as well as the mechanism by which they function can be studied in cell culture. It is known that intestinal epithelial cell lines Caco-2 and T84 respond to gluten/gliadin treatment in a specific manner. When Caco-2 cells are exposed to a peptic-tryptic digest of gliadin (PT-gliadin), there is a significant increase in the permeability of the epithelial layer, measured as increased transepithelial resistance (TER), presumably because of decreased expression of several tight junctional proteins [19]. Furthermore, both cells types react to gliadin treatment by reorganizing their actin cytoskeleton [19,20]. This rearrangement in Caco-2 cells can be detected by large membrane ruffles at the edges of cell islets when grown in medium containing gliadin [21]."Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-49912803336345776672009-12-02T12:59:36.065-08:002009-12-02T12:59:36.065-08:00Matt,
Your argument rests on the idea that "...Matt,<br /><br />Your argument rests on the idea that "healthy people tolerate grains."<br /><br />First off, "tolerate" is a very low bar, I don't think that's very meaningful.<br /><br />Secondly, you seem to be heading towards circular logic -- if someone doesn't tolerate grains, then they were unhealthy to begin with? Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.<br /><br />If your goal is optimum health, I think there is ample evidence that eliminating grains will help you reach that goal.<br /><br />Everyone has their own angle on things, and I think the anti-grain bias (which I share) can cause someone to become anti-carb (since so much of our carbs are grain based), and to the casual observer they are easy to confuse anyway.<br /><br />I don't think you're any kind of authority so I don't care if you "go off" on someone, Gedgaudas or Sisson or whoever. This blog isn't about self-righteous attacks on other writers, it's about thoughtful and continuous learning. I would rather see you demonstrating your authority with quality logic, writing, references, and an ability to concede points to others.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02404726297092447442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-87589389110250776202009-12-02T12:23:55.187-08:002009-12-02T12:23:55.187-08:00Yes Ryan, that is exactly the logic that I've ...Yes Ryan, that is exactly the logic that I've followed. If healthy peoples tolerated grains, or carbs, or meats, or fruit, or dairy, or whatever a person's bent is - and many modern people are sickened by it, do we blame the grain or do we blame the people who can't tolerate it due to other factors. I think the answer is quite clear. <br /><br />Grains without substantial amounts of "accessory food factors" such as ample fat soluble vitamins, is a harmful overall diet. <br /><br />A paleo diet is a healthy diet and a safe bet assuming that it isn't too low in carbohdyrates - which is often counterproductive to modern man and his notoriously low metabolism and shot adrenals. <br /><br />But the paleo craze has all kinds of flawed assumptions, like Mark Sisson's belief that paleo guy was uber lean and looked like a "decathlete." The aborigine on page 167 of Nutrition and Physical Degeneration doesn't look much like Sisson to me. In fact, they would have thought, by his leanness, that Sisson was one sick mofo if he had wandered through the village. <br /><br />Anyway, I'm just saddened by the departure from Price and other astute scholars of the 20th century with modern-day abominations like Nora Gedgaudas's Primal Body-Primal Mind. No one who witnessed the change from healthy to sick with the introduction of refined foods had anything but great things to say about agricultural staples like corn, oats, and wheat. They certainly didn't abolish carbohydrates as many Paleos do, which is absolutely laughable. And I can't stand by it, especially after lowering my own fasting and postprandial blood glucose readings by 15%+ over the past month breaking nearly every one of the Paleo rules of Gedgaudas and company. <br /><br />I'm gonna go off on Gedgaudas in my December ezine. She parades around like a Weston A. Price evangelist while completely turning her back on his work. I just don't want to see anyone round these here parts fall into the same black hole.Matt Stonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00823163098708883587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-52803575448609660642009-12-02T09:52:47.272-08:002009-12-02T09:52:47.272-08:00Hi Ryan,
I have a few references.
"Gluten-i...Hi Ryan,<br /><br />I have a few references.<br /><br />"Gluten-induced mucosal changes in subjects without overt small-bowel disease. Lancet. 1981 Mar 7;1(8219):517-20."<br /><br />They fed subjects 50g gluten per day (high dose), who were either normal or relatives of celiac patients. Both groups saw inflammatory changes in the gut lining and changes in absorption.<br /><br />"Gliadin, zonulin and gut permeability: Effects on celiac and non-celiac intestinal<br />mucosa and intestinal cell lines. Scandinavian Journal of Gastroenterology,41:4,408 — 419"<br /><br />They found that gliadin increases intestinal permeability in biopsies of CD patients, and to a lesser extent, normal controls.<br /><br />"Gliadin Induces an Increase in Intestinal Permeability and Zonulin<br />Release by Binding to the Chemokine Receptor CXCR3. Gastroenterology. 2008 July ; 135(1): 194–204"<br /><br />Gliadin increased intestinal permeability in mice through inflammatory signaling.<br /><br />"Is gliadin really safe for non-coeliac individuals? Production of interleukin 15 in biopsy culture from non-coeliac individuals challenged with gliadin peptides. Gut 2007;56:889-890"<br /><br />They found that gliadin causes inflammatory changes in celiac and non-celiac gut biopsies.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-39934425720443617532009-12-01T12:12:48.217-08:002009-12-01T12:12:48.217-08:00Is anybody aware of evidence indicating that wheat...Is anybody aware of evidence indicating that wheat gluten is an inherently harmful substance?<br /><br />I suspect the following: nutritional deficiency leads to weak intestinal integrity which leads to gluten being a harmful substance. Healthy, <i>nutritionally-sound</i> individuals (i.e. traditional peoples) may not have any problem with wheat, while a deficient person might.<br /><br />Either way, I avoid the stuff!R K @ Health Matters To Mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03129987871286653818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-60731990240292199622009-11-30T22:24:14.653-08:002009-11-30T22:24:14.653-08:00Stephan,
The North Indian/South Indian paper is n...Stephan,<br /> The North Indian/South Indian paper is not rock solid--it neglects coconut which is South Indian staple. They eat it everyday. <br />The paper seeks to show the superiority of high-fibre whole-wheat based diet. But maybe the only effect is lack of Vitamin A and K2 in the South Indian diet.Gyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09941686166886986037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-19182930036325672612009-11-30T19:53:59.499-08:002009-11-30T19:53:59.499-08:00Hi Todd,
Price gave us numbers for tooth decay, t...Hi Todd,<br /><br />Price gave us numbers for tooth decay, that line up nicely with the findings of other investigators. He also did experiments in animals and humans to back up his theories. <br /><br />Price's observations on malocclusion, thumb sucking, general health, etc, I consider anecdotes, because he didn't record anything systematically. But they gain strength when they're backed up by modern research, which they often but not always are.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-68076439844373319592009-11-30T17:39:47.839-08:002009-11-30T17:39:47.839-08:00Stephan,
Thanks for the response. No, I have no...Stephan, <br /><br />Thanks for the response. No, I have no other evidence other than what Matt said McCarrison said. <br /><br />Do you consider McCarrison's evidence to be less anectdotal than Price's?Todd Hargrovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17556388922969976238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-58675881567009119662009-11-30T16:33:06.402-08:002009-11-30T16:33:06.402-08:00Robert Mcleod said
"Gluten only causes probl...Robert Mcleod said<br /><br />"Gluten only causes problems if the gliadin peptide in it gets past the intestinal wall as a peptide. If it gets broken down to amino acids first, it's harmless.<br /><br />Thank you for that.<br /><br />So the rising rates of gluten intolerance are a reflection of the permeability of the gut wall.<br /><br />Lots of things cause degradation of the gut wall, including lack of vitamin D, and an Omega 3 6 imbalance.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-19458114111843706892009-11-30T15:26:15.852-08:002009-11-30T15:26:15.852-08:00Hi Todd,
Is there any evidence these people were ...Hi Todd,<br /><br />Is there any evidence these people were actually healthy, besides anecdotes?<br /><br />I have evidence that North Indians eating whole wheat and dairy had fewer heart attacks than South Indians eating practically nothing but white rice and beans with no added fat. That's the only solid evidence I've come across, and I don't know how much it tells us about the health effects of wheat specifically. <br /><br />If you have more evidence, please pass it along.<br /><br />Hi Anna,<br /><br />Thanks for passing that along.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-80544020385183363592009-11-30T14:47:55.783-08:002009-11-30T14:47:55.783-08:00The Fall 2009 issue of Wise Traditions, the journa...The Fall 2009 issue of Wise Traditions, the journal of the Weston A. Price Foundation, had an interesting article about George Catlin, a 19th century "renaissance" (my description) writer and artist who spent considerable time living with various Native American tribes, as he recognized that their traditional way of life was quickly fading. <br /><br />The book Catlin wrote and kept in print until his death, Shut Your Mouth and Save Your Life, is available on google books to read and download. It's full of interesting observations that pertain to Stephan's excellent series on malocclusion.<br /><br />http://books.google.com/books?id=-RYDAAAAQAAJ&dq=george+catlin+shut+your+mouth&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=LKhyI5VQW6&sig=QD3IQIooq3omQGlHt4KoagxC1So&hl=en&ei=uQIUS_vnGYiosgOUwcTCAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=falseAnnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17033443643442246531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-22397602819990407812009-11-30T14:13:38.723-08:002009-11-30T14:13:38.723-08:00Todd:
Gluten only causes problems if the gliadin ...Todd:<br /><br />Gluten only causes problems if the gliadin peptide in it gets past the intestinal wall as a peptide. If it gets broken down to amino acids first, it's harmless. <br /><br />Something other than gluten causes breakdown of the intensitial biofilm-muscus-intestinal wall-blood barrier, IMO. I suspect it's fructose, since it's a metabolite and would logically change the composition of gut flora, but I am guessing.Robert McLeodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05270962906437456350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-31691551353639910592009-11-30T14:03:56.715-08:002009-11-30T14:03:56.715-08:00Stephan,
Your response to Matt addresses the phy...Stephan, <br /><br />Your response to Matt addresses the phytic acid issue. But what about gluten? How could the Sikhs eat gluten as a staple and be so healthy? What is your explanation for McCarrison's findings in this regard?Todd Hargrovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17556388922969976238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-37911561758357889732009-11-30T13:01:39.488-08:002009-11-30T13:01:39.488-08:00Yeah, that makes sense, or we'd all have ricke...Yeah, that makes sense, or we'd all have rickets around here (USA).Mavishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06994797939492751433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-38588720659476366502009-11-30T11:07:08.385-08:002009-11-30T11:07:08.385-08:00Hi Helen,
It barely takes any vitamin D to preven...Hi Helen,<br /><br />It barely takes any vitamin D to prevent rickets. Rickets happens when your serum vitamin D approaches zero. I just can't believe that their vitamin D levels, in a traditional African society spending half the day outdoors, were so depleted that it gave them rickets.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-22735235866276820262009-11-30T11:04:18.166-08:002009-11-30T11:04:18.166-08:00Hi James,
Interesting, I hadn't thought about...Hi James,<br /><br />Interesting, I hadn't thought about it. Maybe.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-30835154356236083602009-11-30T10:56:05.284-08:002009-11-30T10:56:05.284-08:00Stephan,
In your last post you said:
"Growt...Stephan,<br /><br />In your last post you said:<br /><br />"Growth continues until about age 17, when the last skull sutures cease growing and slowly fuse. One of these sutures runs along the center of the maxillary arch (the arch in the upper jaw), and contributes to the widening of the upper arch"<br /><br />Could metal braces contribute to malocclusion? Braces are often fitted in early teens and apply a lot of inward pressure on growing bone. Isn't this like foot binding? If you have a smaller dental arch as a result aren't you likely to have malocclusion even with the removal of teeth?Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16385290454482773223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-69559593653842999292009-11-30T09:57:49.911-08:002009-11-30T09:57:49.911-08:00Interesting: "Traditionally living Bantu chil...Interesting: "Traditionally living Bantu children, in places where grains are heavily used, often have rickets. If you live in Africa, and thus you get plenty of vitamin D, there's only one reason you get rickets: severe mineral deficiency."<br /><br />Or, could it be that the grain-based diet creates greater demands for vitamin D? (I am not sure how this works, but think I read it here.) Dark-skinned people require more sunlight to make vitamin D than light-skinned people. The Bantus' skin pigment may reflect an earlier adaptation to living in sunny Africa *sans grains.* Europeans' lighter skin pigments may reflect an adaptation not only latitude and cloud-cover, but also a grain-based diet, all reasons to need to synthesize more vitamin D. <br /><br />(Note that northern peoples who eat a lot of oily fish (and fish livers) often have a darker skin tone. And yes, another reason may be that they started living there more recently.) <br /><br />I also wonder if this has something to do with African Americans' greater susceptibility to cancer and heart disease in the United States. Of course, disparities in income, food access (the "food desert" phenomenon in urban areas), and health care, as well as the stress of racism, all play a role, but northern and largely indoor living combined with a vitamin-D-deficiency-promoting diet (the SAD), combined with darker skin, probably has a lot to do with this. <br /><br />Matt, in reading your comments about the Sikhs on 180 Degree Health, I wondered if their excellent health had to due with the freshly-ground-ness of the wheat. Stephan's observation makes sense to me here.Mavishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06994797939492751433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-71234535925456911142009-11-30T08:59:07.910-08:002009-11-30T08:59:07.910-08:00Hi Ed,
I still believe in the paleo concept. I t...Hi Ed,<br /><br />I still believe in the paleo concept. I think it's the safest way to go. But we have to acknowledge that there are cultures that have made neolithic foods work, when using them in the right context.<br /><br />Hi Matt,<br /><br />You know we disagree on this. Every culture I've become familiar with that relies heavily on grains treats them to reduce phytic acid. McCarrison's Sikhs are not necessarily a counterexample. Mellanby showed that freshly ground whole wheat breaks down its own PA rapidly. If they let the batter sit around for as little as an hour, most of it would have been gone. <br /><br />McCarrison's animal experiments aren't relevant here. Different animals have different abilities to break down PA during digestion. Humans and dogs break don little or none of it in the small intestine, whereas rats are pretty good at breaking it down. <br /><br />Traditionally living Bantu children, in places where grains are heavily used, often have rickets. If you live in Africa, and thus you get plenty of vitamin D, there's only one reason you get rickets: severe mineral deficiency.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-11704199755794404542009-11-30T07:25:45.822-08:002009-11-30T07:25:45.822-08:00Matt,
From the things I read, I don't think I...Matt,<br /><br />From the things I read, I don't think I agree with your conclusion.<br /><br />Removing glutinous foods seems to have a substantial positive impact on people, in particular those with auto-immune diseases.<br /><br />I do not think that our bodies are as simple as, "eat glutinous foods, become unhealthy." There are clearly examples where this does not come true. However, there are a number of examples of "remove glutinous foods, become healthier." So there is a relationship, just not a simple one.<br /><br />I'm not ready to completely jettison the paleo concept, as far as a positive prescription it seems to be very effective. What I feel is in contention are the warnings they give, which basically amount to "if you don't eat this way, you will get very sick." I think exploring this border area is very interesting. Some people do get sick on neolithic foods, some people don't, and "neolithic" is a rather broad category of not just foodstuff but proportions and quantities, and preparation methods as well.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02404726297092447442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-73516471646084768522009-11-30T07:02:19.736-08:002009-11-30T07:02:19.736-08:00Good commentary Ed,
Now you know why Weston A. Pr...Good commentary Ed,<br /><br />Now you know why Weston A. Price and other observers (Cleave, McCarrison, Burkitt) never noticed a link between consumption of phytate rich foods, and even glutinous foods, and relative health. There was no apparent correlation because such items in the diet of impeccably well-nourished peoples was insignificant. Minutiae. Note that these were all agriculturalists. None were hunter gatherers. Agriculture is not the cause of modern man's decline. The Paleo mindset has no basis in reality. The belief that agricultural staples like whole grains and corn are inherently toxic is easy to disprove - whether fermented, sprouted, or simply ground up fresh and cooked for a couple of minutes.Matt Stonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00823163098708883587noreply@blogger.com