tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post5737597580263498888..comments2024-02-25T02:24:14.972-08:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Latest Study on Vitamin K and Coronary Heart DiseaseStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-43467320436156286732014-04-06T09:30:45.849-07:002014-04-06T09:30:45.849-07:00The studies showing MK-4 useless typically use rel...The studies showing MK-4 useless typically use relatively small amounts of MK-4. Ive seen them try to use 45ug daily. <br /><br />I'd like to see studies that use 45mg and higher daily doses of MK-4!<br /><br />45mg is 100 times larger than 450ug.<br /><br />The Dutch that eat the cheese are getting MK-4, not MK-7. The smaller amounts in the cheese appear to help them.<br /><br />A vast majority of studies are flawed and/or have conflicts of interests.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08142784075265343723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-79038826092916320862013-09-01T00:53:46.059-07:002013-09-01T00:53:46.059-07:00OK, after following all the references provided by...OK, after following all the references provided by aforementioned study I have to say that today there seems to be conclusive evidence that MK-4 in normal dietary (sub-mg) amounts is probably very much worthless (that's probably the reason the Japanese bone density trials used a much higher, pharmacological dose of 45mg). Even vitamin K1 seems to raise MK-4 levels in the body much more efficently that MK-4 itself, whereas MK-7 appears highly efficient in raising blood and tissue levels of MK-4. Those findings fit right in with the observation of the Dutch (not Danish, sorry!) study, where only the longer chain forms - and not MK-4 - were associated with coronary risk reduction. We now know that only these forms are absorbable, whereas dietary MK-4 largely passes through the system unused.<br /><br />Maybe this is a good example of how far astray our resoning sometimes goes, when we wear those paleo-eyeglasses. Everything makes perfectly sense as long as we gaze through them, but when we are forced to put them down we are confronted with a empirical reality that sometimes just doesn't fit in with our (our Weston A. Price's for that matter ;) romantic notions about a supposedly paradisiac paleolithic past.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13771137905561268666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-53588618000359676722013-08-31T02:58:19.736-07:002013-08-31T02:58:19.736-07:00Adding to all the K2 oddities out there is this st...Adding to all the K2 oddities out there is this study from 2012: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23140417<br /><br />They gave 420 μg of either MK-4 or MK-7 for seven days to healthy Japanese woman. Guess what? MK-7 blood levels rose significantly at 4h and 48h after the first dose and after 7 days of treatment.<br /><br />MK-4 didn't rose at all, neither after the first dose nor after 7 days. It's not just that it didn't rose significantly, it wasn't even detectable!<br /><br />So what's your take on this odd result? Does it explain why the Danish study supposedly found a protective effect for >MK-4 only? Or did the MK-4 got "suck up" by the tissues that fast (<4h)? Or maybe there measurement methods were faulty? Very strange result anyway...Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13771137905561268666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-31793785331348395012012-11-23T00:42:50.132-08:002012-11-23T00:42:50.132-08:00I'm seeing a lot of people post about K2 being...I'm seeing a lot of people post about K2 being produced in the gut but bacteria. Problem is, the vast majority of people have taken anti biotics at some point in their lifetime, and unfortunately the volume of bacterial colonies destroyed probably kill any chance of you manufacturing it in the gut. <br /><br />I know we have pre and probiotics but the few they sell on the shelves are nothing compared to the thousands upon thousands of species lost following anti biotic use. <br /><br />Sadly unless you can get a hold of live breast milk or colostrum you're probably not going to be able to manufacture K2 in the gut and that's possibly why heart disease is at an all time high besides the volume of junk they sell on shelves these days.<br /><br />Which leaves us with supplementation where K2 is concerned if you're needing to keep your arteries clean. The other point is it is the methionine in red meat that causes inflammation in the arteries and omega 6 fats (which have been converted to trans fats), and fructose and sugar which cause arterial plaque. <br /><br />It's now said that it is actually a Vit C deficiency which allows the arteries to be lined with plaque. That taking high dose L Lysine and Vitamin C can reverse arterial plaque problems as both combined literally clean the arteries and cardiovascular system over time. <br /><br />I think its good that nature gives the body numerous ways in which to recover from disease.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-75889265965077894802011-03-06T08:08:15.918-08:002011-03-06T08:08:15.918-08:00Thanks for this amazing blog, my interest is the n...Thanks for this amazing blog, my interest is the nutrient content of wild foods and therefore how traditional cultures prepared wild foods, also being a vegan (of over 10 years) i am always looking for plant derivatives of all nutrients and how to access them and since finding your blog i have not been able to ‘ put it down’ the articles and dialogues that follow are possibly the most interesting stuff i have read on the subject ever. that this site was so Paleo didn’t occur to me straight away(i hadn’t even heard of the term before visiting here)but i am also concerned with meat and dairy too, because my family are all meat and dairy eaters . Anyway putting the two quotes of some of your words (Stephan) together,<br /><br />“If you feed vitamin K-deficient rats MK-7, you find MK-4 in their bone, suggesting they convert MK-7 to MK-4.” <br />and<br /><br />“Natto is made with Bacillus subtilis.If those are made with B. subtilis then they would probably contain lots of MK-7 like natto”<br /><br />Do you think we can convert MK-7 natto to M-4? Because if i have this correct that would mean that we can indirectly get MK 4 from a plant resource and not have to eat meat for it? it would also mean that i have to start eating natto...yesterday!Callum Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08898145438237612148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-77677171368359084272010-02-25T20:14:32.984-08:002010-02-25T20:14:32.984-08:00I am curious to know if K-2 in
menatetrenone (ferm...I am curious to know if K-2 in<br />menatetrenone (fermented brown rice) form has the same effect as K-7. Is it true that vitamin K plays a role in gamma-carboxylating all of the amino acids?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-47169190313009127092010-02-22T22:10:38.841-08:002010-02-22T22:10:38.841-08:00The post is about vitamin K2 MK-4, which is only f...The post is about vitamin K2 MK-4, which is only found in animal foods. The plant foods you mentioned contain none.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-46919051538192905102010-02-22T11:20:51.208-08:002010-02-22T11:20:51.208-08:00It seems you don't know Mr. expert but vitamin...It seems you don't know Mr. expert but vitamin K is found in lettuce, parsley..<br />Leafy green vegetables (kale, collards, spinach, turnip greens, beet greens, mustard greens, dandelion greens green leaf lettuce), Brussels sprouts, broccoli, green onions, parsley, asparagus and sauerkraut contain more than the RDA of vitamin K for men or women.GOOGLERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18155546858933276809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-30611334212540418382010-01-12T18:54:33.362-08:002010-01-12T18:54:33.362-08:00Carie,
In a word, no. K1 to K2 conversion tops ou...Carie,<br /><br />In a word, no. K1 to K2 conversion tops out at 100 mcg/day or so. That keeps your bones from dissolving, but it's not the optimal dose. We don't know for sure what the optimal dose is, but Weston Price's studies suggested that the 'cultural wisdom' of native peoples pegged it between 500 and 1000 mcg/day. <br /><br />Independent studies in Japan and the Netherlands confirm the benefits of high-dose K2 supplementation. Way higher than the body can convert on its own.<br /><br />Regards,<br />BrockAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17698562397742719005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-27596687267006130002010-01-10T21:13:16.925-08:002010-01-10T21:13:16.925-08:00Um, sorry never mind that last post. I see it was ...Um, sorry never mind that last post. I see it was covered in other's comments. Feel free to delete.cariewfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11784537919604274543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-19738505318007939142010-01-10T21:06:19.539-08:002010-01-10T21:06:19.539-08:00Greetings Dr. Stephen,
I come to you by way of Ri...Greetings Dr. Stephen,<br /><br />I come to you by way of Richard Nikoley's blog. I was reading one of his pieces on vitamin supplements, and got interested in the K1 vs. K2 since the vitamins my family has been taking all have K1.<br /><br />My question is, might the benefits of dietary K2 intake relative to dietary K1 be coincidental? It seems bacteria in the gut process K1 into K2 for absorption? If that is the case, maybe the better health from those that "eat" K2 is not from the K2, but from other things (lipids) that come along with the food they eat?<br /><br />Has a study been done to this effect? Can K2 levels be measured in the blood? Has anyone measured the K2 levels of people that ingest K1 vs. those that ingest K2?<br /><br />Many thanks.cariewfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11784537919604274543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-86417838351101048442009-05-10T22:14:00.000-07:002009-05-10T22:14:00.000-07:00Alfonse,
You could do a controlled clinical trial...Alfonse,<br /><br />You could do a controlled clinical trial with MK-7 vs placebo where they look at cardiac outcomes like mortality. It's been done with a number of other isolated nutrients.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-65467839742505252222009-05-09T08:07:00.000-07:002009-05-09T08:07:00.000-07:00Stephan: How would one measure Vitamin K2-MK7 car...Stephan: How would one measure Vitamin K2-MK7 cardiac protective effect unless you established a baseline with a cardiac catherization and found disease, then took Vitamin K2-MK 7 supplements for a period of time, then redid the cardiac catherization. No insurance would pay for research catherizations. What other objective measureable test would you suggest in place of that?Alfonsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05708013715287843706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-39325491776008634692009-04-15T19:24:00.000-07:002009-04-15T19:24:00.000-07:00Grad students,
Aha, a skeptical reader, I like it...Grad students,<br /><br />Aha, a skeptical reader, I like it! That hazard ratio is per 10 micrograms of K2. I believe what they did was first establish that K2 is significantly inversely associated with CHD risk in general. The mean intake was 29 micrograms, with quite a bit of variability, so people with the highest intake had a better HR than 0.91 with a more solid 95% CI. <br /><br />Then they went back and tried to quantify the risk reduction per unit K2, which yielded the 0.91 HR. I agree this kind of analysis is a bit shaky, but it doesn't detract from the inverse association between K2 and CHD.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-26476947558236954132009-04-15T05:50:00.000-07:002009-04-15T05:50:00.000-07:00Thanks for posting this! Maybe I am forgetting/mi...Thanks for posting this! Maybe I am forgetting/misunderstanding statistics, but isn't it the case that when this is present: "Hazard Ratio (HR) of 0.91 [95% CI 0.85-1.00]" then this study is largely, well, useless? Am I correct in understanding that because of that 1.00 there, this study has absolutely no statistically significant implications?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05365705747714667482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-1104495959227369532009-04-10T22:37:00.000-07:002009-04-10T22:37:00.000-07:00Brock,I'm not sure, because K2 hasn't been measure...Brock,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure, because K2 hasn't been measured in many foods. I give a rough estimate of 500 micrograms per day as the reasonable upper limit from food, but that requires neolithic foods like foie gras and pastured butter. <BR/><BR/>Certain organs contain a high concentration of K2 but to my knowledge it hasn't been measured in wild animals that would have been prey to HGs. I'd be surprised if HGs consistently got more than 100 micrograms per day. I also suspect that there may be something in wheat, sugar or both that increases the need for K2.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-74149824221137444752009-04-10T03:15:00.000-07:002009-04-10T03:15:00.000-07:00Stephan, the "natural dose" of K2 something I've a...Stephan, the "natural dose" of K2 something I've actually been wondering about. Have you seen any estimates on what the "natural" intake of K2 is in H/G diets?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17698562397742719005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-79359439727092902532009-04-09T21:02:00.000-07:002009-04-09T21:02:00.000-07:00Robot,Your risk of heart attack will be in the neg...Robot,<BR/><BR/>Your risk of heart attack will be in the negatives, haha! The study was observational so I can't say for sure that taking K2 will reduce your risk. I think there's good reason to believe that K2 is a factor. But remember, these people were getting K2 from diet, which comes in conjunction with a number of other nutrients that act together with K2 (A, D, minerals). Who knows what taking 5 mg of isolated K2 will do; that's an unnatural dose. The Japanese trials showed that 45 mg per day is well tolerated over a period of a couple of years (i.e. no detectable negative side effects on average). But again, 5 mg of straight K2 is outside your body's normal operating parameters.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-12028704358421156472009-04-09T20:27:00.000-07:002009-04-09T20:27:00.000-07:00I just bought Carlson K2 - MK-4 in the 5mg dose. ...I just bought Carlson K2 - MK-4 in the 5mg dose. 5mg is 5 milligrams, right? If so, 5mg = 5,000 micrograms, right? But if every daily 10 micrograms dose lowers my risk of heart attack 9%, I should have virtually no chance of having a heart attack, right?<BR/><BR/>I have a feeling that I'm misunderstanding something here. Can anyone shed some light on this?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09170938036908227899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-85079045206961989112009-03-12T12:07:00.000-07:002009-03-12T12:07:00.000-07:00"I buy raw butter (Pasture fed) at either Sprouts ..."I buy raw butter (Pasture fed) at either Sprouts or Whole Foods markets. Wonderful stuff." -homertobias<BR/><BR/>I'm sure raw pastured butter is wonderful. <BR/><BR/>But a lot of people can't get raw dairy. I.e., My home state of Maine, due to maximizing their covert efforts to discourage local dairy farmers from selling raw products, has made it very difficult for someone like myself. And, it's against US federal law to ship/transport raw dairy across state lines.<BR/><BR/>But, I believe those who can't find local raw pasture should NOT be discouraged because, AFAIK, Vitamin K2 is heat stable.<BR/><BR/>Organic Valley widely distributes a limited edition pasture butter (May-September cream) that has been minimally pasteurized:<BR/><BR/>http://www.organicvalley.coop/products/butter/pasture/product/pasture-8-oz/<BR/><BR/>We can also order summer/pasture butter online from Pastureland:<BR/><BR/>http://www.pastureland.coop/products/butter<BR/><BR/>If you like ghee (and can afford it) this looks like a good place to order pasture ghee online (I've never personally ordered from them... yet):<BR/><BR/>http://www.pureindianfoods.com/order.shtmlPaul Mcgrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05580345432930566788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-31824683182126011182009-03-11T16:41:00.000-07:002009-03-11T16:41:00.000-07:00I love liverwurst, especially with brown seed must...I love liverwurst, especially with brown seed mustard! I even loved it as a kid, but didn't like liver.<BR/><BR/>I think liverwurst is a good way to eat liver, esp if regular liver is too strong. My SIL in Norway and a German-raised friend here feed liverwurst spread on bread (of course) to their kids for breakfast and snacks. Then again they also eat fish ( pickled herring, etc.). Wish I could get my kid to go for that sort of thing, but at least we're backed away from the cold cereals...some things take time. But I think savory breakfasts (like fish and liver) are important to start very young, or else taste for it is hard to develop later.<BR/><BR/>The best grocery store liverwurst I can find is Boar's Head brand (only marginally better than the Farmer John's and Oscar Mayer, with preservatives, sugars, and additives I wouldn't want). I'd eat those options once in a while, but it isn't what I'd want for regular consumption. <BR/><BR/>The liverwurst you mention and US Wellness Meats look like good options, though I haven't tried them yet. Need to do so, or learn to make it myself (I have a good sized meat grinder). I think it probably freezes well, and would likely slice into 3-day sized portions with just a bit of thawing, so a bulk purchase is a reasonable option. I know US Wellness Meats often has coupons for regular customers and many like their products and ordering system.Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17033443643442246531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-9877458364078088452009-03-11T16:01:00.000-07:002009-03-11T16:01:00.000-07:00What do you guys think of liverwurst? I found a so...What do you guys think of liverwurst? I found a source for grass-fed organic liverwurst, here's the ingredients:<BR/><BR/>grass-fed beef trim (30%),liver (30%), heart (20%) and kidney (20%), water, sea salt, onion powder, honey, white pepper, coriander, marjoram, allspice<BR/><BR/>http://www.grasslandbeef.com/Detail.bok?no=821<BR/><BR/>I bought some and I'm trying to figure out how to eat it. It is inoffensively bland with a slightly weird distinctive smell, but the texture is pretty soft.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02404726297092447442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-86754956184573840512009-03-11T09:47:00.000-07:002009-03-11T09:47:00.000-07:00pmpctek,Thanks for the links. I am enjoying pokin...pmpctek,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the links. I am enjoying poking around in them. The Rotterdam study used cheese not supplements and the dutch certainly make delicious cheese.<BR/><BR/>I buy raw butter (Pasture fed) at either Sprouts or Whole Foods markets. Wonderful stuff. <BR/><BR/>For me the jury is still out on injesting Vitamin A. Of course that could be a post in itself.<BR/><BR/>Stephan. Interesting about nattokinase.<BR/><BR/>I find it curious that the Japanese seem to be promoting MK4 and the Dutch MK7. <BR/><BR/>Later.homertobiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264750909753929126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-32156999901559762872009-03-10T22:17:00.000-07:002009-03-10T22:17:00.000-07:00Homertobias,Gut bacteria synthesize longer menaqui...Homertobias,<BR/><BR/>Gut bacteria synthesize longer menaquinones, but are you sure they make it from MK-4? Bacteria can make menaquinones from scratch. Besides, by the time bacteria are making menaquinones, they're too far down the gut for us to absorb them. <BR/><BR/>B. natto is the older name for B. subtilis. The thing I don't understand about nattokinase is how can an ingested enzyme do anything other than act in the gut? Enzymes don't cross into circulation, so how could it have the effects that are ascribed to it? I don't know anything about it, just curious.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-36090841687596491722009-03-10T14:22:00.000-07:002009-03-10T14:22:00.000-07:00"I'm leary of supplementing with a gelcap..."I'm leary of supplementing with a gelcap because we don't know yet what form is best and what dose is optimal." - homertobias<BR/><BR/>If you believe the data in The Rotterdam Heart Study, then a threshold of 32.7 micrograms of K2 from fermented hard cheese (MK-7) is associated with a 52 percent lower risk of severe aortic calcification, a 41 percent lower risk of CHD, and a 51 percent lower risk of CHD mortality.<BR/><BR/>Dr. Leon Schurgers (www.menaq7.com) seems to favor MK-7 at a daily dose of 45-90 mcg. http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=menaq7&scoring=p<BR/><BR/>Weston Price used animal fat (concentrated butterfat (MK-4) from ruminants grazing on fast growing pasture) in his "Activator X" calcium metabolism studies. David Wetzel of Green Pasture Products seems to be a good source of natural MK-4 at a controlled dose that Price may have used in his experiments. No need for "supplementing with a gelcap" if you get an 8oz. bottle. I consider this butter oil more as a food source than a supplement anyway:<BR/><BR/>http://www.greenpasture.org/products/butter-oil/1000<BR/><BR/>David Wetzel is not a doctor, but has an interesting theory. That, the benefits from Price's Activator X is actually from a group of fat soluble nutrients (found in vitamin A, E, K and COQ) that have yet to receive much attention called quinones: <BR/><BR/>http://www.greenpasture.org/node/48<BR/><BR/>http://www.greenpasture.org/node/121Paul Mcgrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05580345432930566788noreply@blogger.com