tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post6389826586176760579..comments2024-03-27T23:47:41.656-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Why Did Energy Expenditure Differ Between Diets in the Recent Study by Dr. Ludwig's Group?Stephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger174125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-29236235662413769282015-03-28T11:00:11.637-07:002015-03-28T11:00:11.637-07:00Guyenet: "In Dr. Ludwig's paper and the a...Guyenet: "In Dr. Ludwig's paper and the accompanying editorial in JAMA, they made no claims about carbohydrate being more fattening than fat, and they didn't even broach the topic, because Dr. Ludwig's study is not relevant to the question. I would love to see Dr. Ludwig set the record straight on this, but unfortunately most researchers don't fight back when their results are abused in the popular media."<br /><br />Ludwig is receiving funding from Taubes's NuSI group. That makes it even less likely that Ludwig would speak out against misinterpretations made by Taubes.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02151097017284865549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-36318011042304443222012-07-30T15:33:31.377-07:002012-07-30T15:33:31.377-07:00I do enjoy reading your blog sometimes, I have a b...I do enjoy reading your blog sometimes, I have a blog I started called metabolic syndrome of course a blogger blog. I don't know about the arguments presented here, but I do know this, by decreasing my high gi carbs dramatically, taking a glucose tolerance factor, more sunshine without sunscreen, being careful to not wash my oils away to much to allow vita d to absorb,digestive enzymes and unlimited veggies fruit when I desire it, meats, I love dairy, hamburger, dark chocolate yummy! nuts when I want it, anyway since I have started to do this my a1c is falling, I am finally sleeping better (Not needing to get up and eat anymore) which was a problem for many years despite diet changes nad exercises supplements. I have more energy etc (this didn't happen overnight, not the story of I started this diet and lost 10 pounds the first month nonsense. the underlying nutrtional deficiency and metabolic dysfunction first before any weight can be dealth with, after all obesity is a symptom not a cause.<br /><br />roserobrobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08543110396112149963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-75199506325539121032012-07-18T18:15:48.359-07:002012-07-18T18:15:48.359-07:00I think Gary Taubes has mentioned that everybody h...I think Gary Taubes has mentioned that everybody has a personally "upper limit" for carbohydrates before they start packing on fat, and that we are all different regarding this.<br /><br />I have noticed ,in myself, that if I go for a week eating lots of dates, white things, candy etc. I get a bigger belly a bit. This happens consistently. In other words, the bdoy fat around the abdomen increases. My weight does not go up that much at all, but my body looks worse. <br /><br />My safe carbs are apples, greens, nectarines etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-46494583848991042982012-07-18T12:58:37.011-07:002012-07-18T12:58:37.011-07:00Clarification: the quote was in the print version....Clarification: the quote was in the print version.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-14329401023912134752012-07-18T12:56:45.227-07:002012-07-18T12:56:45.227-07:00Hi Mary B,
You are incorrect, that exact quote wa...Hi Mary B,<br /><br />You are incorrect, that exact quote was in the Sunday New York Times. I did not paraphrase. It was the highlighted summary quote, but it does not appear in the online version. Think before you start flinging accusations.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-13973045987916481452012-07-15T18:33:18.223-07:002012-07-15T18:33:18.223-07:00thanks, looks like I need to forget what I remembe...thanks, looks like I need to forget what I remember from my late 70s style guide.Sanjeevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522727136330797375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-72369026157125402002012-07-15T17:51:12.275-07:002012-07-15T17:51:12.275-07:00Here's a quote from Purdue:
"The primary...Here's a quote from Purdue:<br /><br />"The primary function of quotation marks is to set off and represent exact language (either spoken or written) that has come from somebody else." And "Since you will most often use them when working with outside sources, successful use of quotation marks is a practical defense against accidental plagiarism and an excellent practice in academic honesty."<br /><br />So clearly you should not use quotation marks when paraphrasing. Otherwise you risk seriously misrepresenting what someone else said, as Stephan did in this case. (I would think someone with a PhD who has written a lot of research papers would know how to use quotation marks.)<br /><br />The rest of the quote from the Taubes op-ed that Sanjeev included is below:<br /><br />"From this perspective, the trial suggests that among the bad decisions we can make to maintain our weight is exactly what the government and medical organizations like the American Heart Association have been telling us to do: eat low-fat, carbohydrate-rich diets, even if those diets include whole grains and fruits and vegetables.<br /><br />A controversial conclusion? Absolutely, and Dr. Ludwig’s results are by no means ironclad. The diets should be fed for far longer than one month, something he hopes to do in a follow-up study. As in any science, these experiments should be replicated by independent investigators. We’ve been arguing about this for over a century. Let’s put it to rest with more good science. The public health implications are enormous."Mary Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07751048532914765144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-18848372565338286342012-07-15T14:44:34.788-07:002012-07-15T14:44:34.788-07:00When I went to school, to make it clear one was qu...When I went to school, to make it clear one was quoting verbatim one had to separate and indent the quote. "in - line" quoting was almost always paraphrasing/summarizing<br /><br />I don't know what the quoting rules are now, that's why I try to be clear by putting in "(paraphrased)" or "(summarized)" whenever I'm doing either. <br /><br />But anyway ... Google refuses what I wanted to do here, so please imagine it; <br /><br /><blockquote>If we think of Dr. Ludwig’s subjects as pre-obese, then the study tells us that the nutrient composition of the diet can trigger the predisposition to get fat, independent of the calories consumed. The fewer carbohydrates we eat, the more easily we remain lean. The more carbohydrates, the more difficult. In other words, carbohydrates are fattening, and obesity is a fat-storage defect. What matters, then, is the quantity and quality of carbohydrates we consume and their effect on insulin.<br /><br />From this perspective, the trial suggests that among the bad decisions we can make <blockquote>Sanjeevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522727136330797375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-11184547631838424622012-07-15T08:49:40.847-07:002012-07-15T08:49:40.847-07:00As Paul pointed out much earlier, Stephan's st...As Paul pointed out much earlier, Stephan's statement about Taubes op-ed:<br /><br />"It proclaimed triumphantly that "a new study suggests that carbs, not calories, lead to weight gain.""<br /><br />is compeletely wrong. Taubes never said that. Stephan even puts it in quotation marks! Very unprofessional.Mary Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07751048532914765144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-46823156903707384522012-07-13T04:26:34.735-07:002012-07-13T04:26:34.735-07:00Another point I have noticed is that naturally thi...Another point I have noticed is that naturally thin people can eat A LOT. <br /><br />What is the dfference between a thn person pigging out and an obese person pigging out? The latter i viewed with disgust by socoety while the former gets a free pass.<br /><br /> What is the difference between an obese person eating to satiation and "energy balance" vs a thin person doing the exact same thing?<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />I have witnessed this among friends who are both obese and rail thin. I have witnessed. obese people NOT eating too much- very modestly. No, don't ASSUME they are sexcretly eating. That is a commercial weight loss industry lie to save a failed hypothesis.<br /><br />Science is moving us in a completely different direction that than the outdated and simplistic caloric model.<br /><br />Remember ,all we can be in science is "less wrong." The uninformed Internet gurus misuse science. They use words like "prove." Their entire money empire rests on the faulty caloric model whose days are numbered.<br /><br />Obesity is not a simple condition of over eaing, nor is it the passive accumulation of calories. To admit this recently gained sicentific knowledge would make the advice in fat loss books useless.<br /><br /><br />We need to find a long term treatment of obesity. This has eluded us. Gastric surgery STILL leaves patients OBESE- but less so.<br /><br />The way it works is that it creates a favorable gut hormone cocktail( it also interfers with the INVOLUNTARY weight regulation system in a beneficial way) that scientists are currently tryng to replicate in a pill.<br /><br />You could not get the same result by simply only eating 800 calories. That has been tried already and failed terribly.<br /><br />Gastric surgery has incredible risk, and is FAR from perfect. A pill form would be a better option, of course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-13698598773058479372012-07-13T04:13:36.623-07:002012-07-13T04:13:36.623-07:00Remember, obesity is FULL of politics. Always reme...Remember, obesity is FULL of politics. Always remember that. There are very, very, very few valid surces of information. Dr. Jeffrey Friedman is one of the valid sources.<br /><br />There is a supposed huge increase in obesity. These numbers are greatly skewed. Obesity is a public health problem, no doubt.<br /><br />However, as mentioned beofe, ther is NO "epidemmic." Obesity has always been with us- since at aleast 23,000 B.C. People are MUHC more sensitized to noticing all of it now due to POLITICAL scare mongering. <br /><br /><br />Only 26,000 people die a year from obesity complications. This is nowhere near the 400,000 figure- whihc ws the result of CDC computer mistakes.<br /><br /><br />The obesity numbers are greatly exaggerated. This is due to a faulty diagnotic measure- the BMI. The BMI measures a CONTINUOUS TRAIT like body weight with a fixed threshold ( e.g. over 30 you're obese- under it you're not)<br /><br /><br />Obesity is a public health problem, but to put things BACK TO REALITY- we are only 8 pounds more today than we were back in 1990.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-41571105060933061252012-07-13T04:06:46.708-07:002012-07-13T04:06:46.708-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-67408945508936415372012-07-12T13:06:23.537-07:002012-07-12T13:06:23.537-07:00@Travis,
It looks like there are more similarities...@Travis,<br />It looks like there are more similarities between Jane's diet and mine than I thought before(I avoid grains and starches). I think that timing of eating and not snacking in many cases is as important as a macro-nutrient content because it addresses the same issue. I have the best lady-friend in Russia, like me and Jane she eats two times a day, first meal is a gruel made of oatmeal or buckwheat with milk , also some coffee, another meal without any limitations is in 6 - 8 hours later, with no snacking in-between, some unsweetened green tea as a drink. She controls her weight in check with her meal pattern, but she is naturally thin, before 45 she could eat whatever she wanted anytime, excessive hunger never was her problem. I think my diet serves me better because I don't get minor seasonal flues and infections, but she still does. It is a complete speculation , there are always personal variations.<br /><br />@Jane,<br /> a population in Russia developed some drill - in expectation of crisis they buy big amounts of salt, soap,matches, sugar and grains. Some regions survived for long periods just fine on own potatoes, fermented cabbage, onions, salted pork fat, wild mushrooms collected in a forest dried or preserved with vinegar and salt(great with potatoes), sunflower oil.Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-31287497481966894392012-07-12T12:22:38.860-07:002012-07-12T12:22:38.860-07:00During the past 20 years, there has been a dramati...During the past 20 years, there has been a dramatic increase in obesity in the US and rates remain high. In 2010, no state had a prevalence of obesity less than 20%. Thirty-six states had a prevalence of 25% or more;<br /><br /><a href="http://www.aabc-certification.org/why-become-certified.html" rel="nofollow">Obesity in the US</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03021824990648193029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-11187165218394141802012-07-12T08:27:45.947-07:002012-07-12T08:27:45.947-07:00@Galina
I think you're right about the potatoe...@Galina<br />I think you're right about the potatoes. This really is the thing to do in a crisis.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-78600573740406040642012-07-12T02:25:42.156-07:002012-07-12T02:25:42.156-07:00@Travis
Breakfast: wholemeal bread with butter an...@Travis <br />Breakfast: wholemeal bread with butter and honey + glass of whole milk<br /><br />No lunch, no snacks, no drinks except a little water<br /><br />Supper: wholemeal bread + butter and cheese, chunk of raw sweetheart cabbage, bowl of uncooked oatflakes with whole milk, fruit and nuts<br /><br />I spend my days in a university science library, and I walk the 2 miles there and work without a break until 5, and walk back. My breakfast and my liver together provide me with enough glucose to keep me feeling - well, high, to be honest - all day.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-78632701221018172842012-07-11T20:01:07.055-07:002012-07-11T20:01:07.055-07:00@Jane,
It happened I didn't spent all my life ...@Jane,<br />It happened I didn't spent all my life in a stable environment, I witnessed the Soviet Union disintegration, completely empty store shelves, nearly complete lack of valuable money due to enormous inflation,when my son was born at 1992, I basically had no resources to live on at that time. I sold all vintage silver which happened to be in the family, moved with my mom and a new-born son into grandma apartment and rent out mine and mom's apartment to tenants, I also cooked for them for money. When stores are empty, black market is thriving, money is a help, but you need more of it. Good thing about crisis it doesn't last forever. There is no point to worry in advance about what to do when a crisis happens, a danger changes and mobilizes people, you will manage like the most. In 1995 me and my son moved to Canada where my husband got a job earlier.<br />As a result of my experience, I can tell, that the best way to provide you with source of food in case of food shortages would be growing potatoes on some piece of land, it could be even some clearance in the forest or a park, many did it in Russia. Grains are good only if you stored it in advance. I have some land around my house in Florida and a forest in a backyard. I would rather trap squirrels and opossums, our forest is over-populated with them. I am sure my American neighbors wouldn't compete for such resource. Squirrels are fine, when my son killed one with an air gun, I braised it, the taste was pretty good. However, I don't worry about a crisis, I survived a major one, I know I can do it again. The main thing to preserve it order to survive every challenge imaginable is your health.Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-64579603835246578492012-07-11T15:09:31.674-07:002012-07-11T15:09:31.674-07:00So Jane-
High fat and high carb concurrently, eh?...So Jane-<br /><br />High fat and high carb concurrently, eh? Sounds fun. What did you eat yesterday?Travis Culphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02611059005476928227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-15690960492498409942012-07-11T03:43:12.730-07:002012-07-11T03:43:12.730-07:00@Galina
'..I didn't mentioned Inuits at al...@Galina<br />'..I didn't mentioned Inuits at all(and your link didn't answer my question about your advice)..'<br /><br />I am not giving you any advice, Galina. It would be inappropriate for me to do so, especially on Stephan's blog.<br /><br />If you remember, you were telling me a ketogenic diet is a normal way for humans to eat. I am trying to point out it isn't. If by a 'ketogenic diet' you actually mean a diet high in animal products, that's different. <br /><br />It is my belief that the wellbeing experienced by many people on an Atkins type diet is due to the relief of not having to count calories and to eat as much animal fat as they like. I know how this feels, because I LOVE butter and cheese and whole organic milk, and being able to eat as much as I like of them and not worry about getting fat. <br /><br />But meat is another matter. The Inuit thrived on a meat diet, but this does not mean eating a lot of meat is a good idea today. Again, let me emphasise I am not giving you advice. I know you don't eat vast quantities of meat. I am merely telling you what I have found in the literature. <br /><br />I know you don't like grains, and I am not suggesting you should eat them. I needed to tell you about my reasons for eating them, in case your circumstances change and you find yourself forced to eat them because there's nothing else. If you read the Financial Times every day like I do, you will be thinking about such things.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-50159171047951647062012-07-10T17:36:28.312-07:002012-07-10T17:36:28.312-07:00It is convenient for playing an opinion ping-pong,...It is convenient for playing an opinion ping-pong, there is almost always some research done to support any point of view. Here is one of several to support my opposition to eat grains, especially with a lot of fiber, <br />"Decreased Absorption of Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc and Phosphorus by Humans due to Increased Fiber and Phosphorus Consumption as Wheat Bread."<br />http://jn.nutrition.org/content/106/4/493.shortGalina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-41982792183823530682012-07-10T09:59:26.051-07:002012-07-10T09:59:26.051-07:00Despite living in very different lifestyles and li...Despite living in very different lifestyles and living in very environments , these international samples of monozygotic twins reared apart looked almost exactly like their other twin as far as body fat and body weight. Even the spots storing the fat were the same.<br /><br />This is some of the best quality science out there that the Internet gurus ignore completely. This is Dr. Friedman's , Dr. Leibel's and Dr. Rosenbaum campaign- to educate the public , other scentists as well as doctors that obesity is a BIOLOGICAL problem with the genetic componsnt being massive. The individual either has a BIOLOGY to be leaner or fatter.<br /><br />I work out but I am not naive enough to falsely believe my workouts are the reason I am 6'2" 160 pounds. It is BIOLOGY. I am an ectomorph by nature. But I do not do shady things like Internet gurus who are lean and try to make MONEY scamming gullible people who read their sites.In fact, I HATE that I cannot seem to get "big guns." I will never get the arms of a guy like MIke Tyson.They are too stringy and long. Randall Cunningham will not either.<br /><br /><br /><br />MIke Tyson, Lance Armstrong, Emmit Smith, Randall Cunningham. All these athlete have very different builds. <br /><br />They are not "paragons of virtue", or better than anybody else. THey look like they do to BEGIN WITH. The workouts only midly enhance it more. Lance Armstrong would look silly tryng to bulk up like MIke Tyson. If he did even achieve it , it most likely would not last and it would not look right on him. Tyson carries lots of muscle very well. MIke Tyson is a classic endomorph with obesity running in his family. No surprise with the anti- depressants ( these drugs act on the neural circuitry that regulates weight) , family history and lack of boxing that he balloned a few eyars back.<br /><br />Look at all of the fat amateur marathoners every year. No professional marathoner is fat because they LOOKED like that to begin with- lean- that is why they went into the sport. Same with sprinters. They are jacked and naturally muscular to begin with-much more so than marathoners. <br /><br />Professionals in any sport are gifted physically to begin with. <br /><br /><br />The heritability and genetic component of obesity is absolutely massive. It is more than ANY other condition studied by science= with the *possible* exception of height alone. And height barely surpasses it. They *may* be equal. <br /><br /><br />Wishing your build one way or another is not going to change much. An individuals' biology is in control ultimately. If the public realized this they would not pay for all of these cheesy fat loss books filled with false promises and false hope. <br /><br />True obese people have odds against them that are extremely strong- biology is powerful. An ectomorph losing weight has no idea hwo hard it will be for a person with true medical obesity and a family history. The palying field is not at all level- it is dramatically bumpy.<br /><br />THis is why a metabolic advantage focus is a waste of time.It is good to investigate , but COMPARED to OTHER things that are more important, it can be a distraction.<br /><br />I love the taste of low carb myself. I have nothing against it. <br /><br />Gut hormones,GENES ( there are over 400 genes directly involved in body weight regualtion) gut microbiota , complex neural circuitry. We will eventually figue out how this feedback loop talks to each other.<br /><br />The weight regulation system has many components but the brain is key, so far as science can tell. Obesity science has tremendous uncertainty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-73117785657745381762012-07-10T08:43:17.977-07:002012-07-10T08:43:17.977-07:00Asim, Sapolsky's talks on toxo and other virus...Asim, Sapolsky's talks on toxo and other viruses/parasites may also interest you ... the long running theory of toxo causing schizophrenia for example<br /><br />http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge307.html<br /><br />I heavily discount any parental impact on adult humans except in cases of severe abuse/neglect. <br /><br />Peer group pressure/acceptance/standards IMHO far outweigh parental effects in most areas. The most obvious example of this is the development of accents in immigrants' children - peer group effects far, FAR outweigh anything the parents can do.Sanjeevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522727136330797375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-31566898400597129272012-07-10T08:31:07.224-07:002012-07-10T08:31:07.224-07:00@Jane,
I didn't mentioned Inuits at all(and yo...@Jane,<br />I didn't mentioned Inuits at all(and your link didn't answer my question about your advice), what I said was that big groups of people had to be able to live on animal products for a long time during human evolution. Vilhjalmur Stefansson and members of his expedition had such experience. As I remember from my reading, when V.S. and one of his team-members participated in the study in a New-York hospital about the healthiness of his all-meat diet, the complaisance with the diet was checked by ketones in urine.BTW, I am not aiming for deep ketosis all the time because I don't want my liver to be too efficient with producing glucose, I commented about it on Hyperlipid blog.<br />As I understand, your diet consists of whole grains and milk products. It is good it works for you, I don't think it will be the case for many.Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-68960934899172700862012-07-10T08:11:48.188-07:002012-07-10T08:11:48.188-07:00Nobody, in these diet discussion seem to point to ...Nobody, in these diet discussion seem to point to the issue that their weight could have been influenced by how their parents raised them when they were young, from the perspective of:<br /><br />1. Formula feeding vs. breastfeeding<br />2. Whether or not their parents gave them antiobiotics aplenty during their infancy, and into their childhood<br /><br />As Dr. Ayers points out, these radically alter the gut flora, impacting the immune system, leading to chronic inflammation.<br /><br />Another interestoing point, though it is speculative, is tonsillitis. Tonsillectomy, which is a common procedure, has a relation to weight gain.<br />The fact that tonsillitis is rather common would seem to indicate some issues in how the immune system deals with foreign antigens. It is well worth to note that the gut flora is the primary method upon which the immune system learns to deal with foreign antigens, but the tonsils are the first line of defense. <br /><br />http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/4/1095<br /><br />"Children who undergo (adeno)tonsillectomy are at increased risk to develop overweight in the years after surgery."<br /><br />So one can see how the immune system could trigger obesity as well.<br /><br />http://bytesizebio.net/index.php/2010/04/25/obesity-the-role-of-the-immune-system/Asimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12680880808056066311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-1547478058313601292012-07-10T08:09:47.623-07:002012-07-10T08:09:47.623-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Asimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12680880808056066311noreply@blogger.com