tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post7451749987929593892..comments2024-02-25T02:24:14.972-08:00Comments on Whole Health Source: China Study Problems of InterpretationStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-16138954776902259782010-07-18T00:36:26.047-07:002010-07-18T00:36:26.047-07:00There's also a couple other related points her...There's also a couple other related points here that may seem obvious, and I would like to note that I did not mean to offend anyone mentioned above.<br /><br />First, competitive sport does not seem to be a good idea for someone who is after general good health and longevity.<br /><br />I would be interested to see a study on the health of former top athletes compared to the rest of the population. But I do not expect to see these athletes to be outstanding in general health.<br /><br />So saying "Michael Phelps has gathered heaps of gold medals, I should eat like him" would probably be a bad idea.<br /><br />http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/08/13/the-michael-phelps-diet-dont-try-it-at-home/<br /><br />Second, even if you don't care about health and just want to swim as fast as Phelps, I don't think copying his training program and diet will lead to good results. Most athletes experiment a lot before they find what works for them personally. And the real top athletes are usually genetically predespositioned to their sport. So copying Phelps' or Schwarzeneggers' training program may easily lead to overtraining or burnout.<br /><br />And finally, there's not much sense in saying "Hey, try to outlift that vegan". Heaps of guys I know lift so much that my jaw drops, but not only they have never heard about paleo or raw veganism, but also their diets are full of stuff that's considered junk by overwhelming majority. But they may have been training for longer, training smarter, more persistently, harder, have different mentality, have started younger or their bodies may be better suited to lifting anatomically.<br /><br />I did not notice any radical changes in my training when I started eating mostly paleo - diet is important, but to a certain extent only. Eating or not eating wheat or potato chips will most likely have long term effects, but, as Stephen mentioned, if raw veganism, or paleo, or any other diet gave a clear advantage, we would see high percentages of top athletes become followers.Evgenyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17617064892044504067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-33690360571404521622010-07-17T12:51:13.996-07:002010-07-17T12:51:13.996-07:00Hi Evgeny,
Haha, thanks for posting. I do love t...Hi Evgeny,<br /><br />Haha, thanks for posting. I do love the internet.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-43197289880925978962010-07-17T06:16:00.594-07:002010-07-17T06:16:00.594-07:00Denise Minger has posted her rebuttal to Campbell ...Denise Minger has posted her rebuttal to Campbell if anyone is interested.<br /><br />http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/16/the-china-study-my-response-to-campbell/MontyApollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04699359141359181115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-17942883237742376702010-07-17T05:49:13.308-07:002010-07-17T05:49:13.308-07:00"Andrew ... and the silver medal in the 90kg ..."Andrew ... and the silver medal in the 90kg weight division.<br /><br />Noah ...and the silver medal in the 125kg weight division."<br /><br />Oh, and while I'm at it, guys, let's be totally honest here - there were exactly two competitors in the 90kg weight division and exactly two competitors in the 125kg weight division. Feel free to throw a rotten egg at me when you see me at the future comps ...Evgenyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17617064892044504067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-83235499543028145462010-07-17T05:39:43.911-07:002010-07-17T05:39:43.911-07:00Harley Johnstone(Durianrider) is an endurance athl...Harley Johnstone(Durianrider) is an endurance athlete! If he wanted to be a vegan body-builder he could - or so he says. Harley, I thought you had a very low B12 level when you were on "What's Good For You"? I saw a recent you tube where you were reporting an extremely high B12 level. Your cholesterol was high.Suehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03181442844616803097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-57218262658612013922010-07-17T05:38:43.240-07:002010-07-17T05:38:43.240-07:00Hey durianrider, you seem to be a fellow ozzie ......Hey durianrider, you seem to be a fellow ozzie ...<br /><br />"Gday crew,nice blog. Come and see if ANY of you guys can out bench press/dead lift/ ride/run us at <br /><br />www.veganstrength.org"<br /><br />Hmm, I dunno ...<br /><br />"Andrew squatted 160kg, benched 97.5kg and deadlifted 212.5kg for a raw comp pb total of 470kg and the silver medal in the 90kg weight division.<br /><br />Noah squatted 207.5kg, benched 180kg (in a bench shirt) and deadlifted 230kg for a comp pb total of 617.5kg and the silver medal in the 125kg weight division."<br /><br />Should I really be impressed?<br /><br />I squatted 170kg and deadlifted 205kg in the same competition in the 75kg weight class, my first competition after moving down from 82.5 weight class because of ... drum roll ... losing 7 kg on a paleo diet.<br /><br />I have since squatted 185kg and deadlifted 210kg at the same 75kg bodyweight.Evgenyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17617064892044504067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-87934808217914649592010-07-17T03:03:39.837-07:002010-07-17T03:03:39.837-07:00Stephan, I so love you. <3 I think it's the...Stephan, I so love you. <3 I think it's the B-12 deficiency talking.bovinedefenestrationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02079182445151708773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-50112187271674146362010-07-15T23:18:00.682-07:002010-07-15T23:18:00.682-07:00By the way, nice arms! Saw them on your blog. St...By the way, nice arms! Saw them on your blog. Stay pumped bro.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-41725359980231232212010-07-15T22:04:48.143-07:002010-07-15T22:04:48.143-07:00Hey tough guy. I've got a couple of questions...Hey tough guy. I've got a couple of questions for you:<br /><br />1) What percentage of olympic athletes are raw vegans?<br /><br />2) Do extreme diets make people aggressive and annoying, or it is just that aggressive and annoying people are drawn to extreme diets?Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-84476282638233698892010-07-15T21:36:24.629-07:002010-07-15T21:36:24.629-07:00Gday crew,nice blog. Come and see if ANY of you gu...Gday crew,nice blog. Come and see if ANY of you guys can out bench press/dead lift/ ride/run us at <br /><br />www.veganbodybuilding.com and www.veganstrength.org <br />www.organicathlete.org<br /><br /><br /><br />Mike Arnstein ran a 2:28 marathon this year at Boston. He is the FASTEST runner in the raw food movement today. Long time vegan and now powered by sweet fruit. How come there is no competitive athletes eating this 'paleo fat diet?' Please shut me up and show me cos Im sick of seeing cardio and muscle deficient paleo crew trying to debunk the china study that us elite athletes are thriving on.<br /><br />Can you debunk me with a high fat eating paleo athlete? <br /><br />Didnt think so.. :)<br /><br />Love, peace and banana grease.<br /><br />Durianriderdurianriderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06153167061483421995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-61861756461790269912010-07-15T04:20:44.744-07:002010-07-15T04:20:44.744-07:00Hi Jack
Thanks for your reply. Yes, it's int...Hi Jack<br /><br />Thanks for your reply. Yes, it's interesting how myths arise about the Hunza. Another myth is that they fermented their bread, which Clark and Wrench seem agreed they did not. Lots of people think unleavened wholemeal bread is an unhealthy food.<br /><br />The same can be said for wheat, and of course for dairy products.<br />To my mind, this is why the Hunza are so important. If their health really was as good as McCarrison says - and he was their doctor for 7 years - we have to ask whether a diet based on grains and milk might be just as 'paleo' as the standard paleo diet which excludes them. There is evidence that Neanderthals collected grain, which would support this idea.<br /><br />I haven't read The China Study, but I rather think Campbell has misinterpreted what he found. Diets high in 'animal protein' often have a high iron-manganese ratio, a high zinc-copper ratio, and/or a high calcium-magnesium ratio. Iron, zinc and calcium overload, with corresponding deficiencies of manganese, copper and magnesium, are implicated in most or all degenerative diseases. Campbell will not be aware of this, because hardly anybody is. It's taken me 30 years to dig it out of the literature. <br /><br />The Hunza diet would have excellent ratios of these metals, despite including quite a lot of 'animal protein'.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-64696433344687353172010-07-14T10:30:35.807-07:002010-07-14T10:30:35.807-07:00Jane,
Certainly it is wise to read other sources ...Jane,<br /><br />Certainly it is wise to read other sources about the Hunza. Perhaps the most accurate book is "Hunza: Lost Kingdom of the Himalayas" by John Clark (1957) as it was written by someone who actually lived there with the local people for some time. The book is out of print but is available online.<br /><br />John Clark treated over 5000 patients during his 20 month stay, so he was familiar with the health of the Hunza.<br /><br />Certainly the Hunza people had a lot going for them from a health standpoint. The young were breast fed for several years. The milk from goats, sheep and yaks was consumed raw. Some of the myths however, such as the claim that they only drank milk on feast days, make no sense. Did they throw away the milk the rest of the year?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-73405170413521161062010-07-14T02:44:07.121-07:002010-07-14T02:44:07.121-07:00Jack C
If you want people to decide for themselve...Jack C<br /><br />If you want people to decide for themselves whether the Hunza story is 'fact or fantasy', you must give them the other side. If they read the article you gave, they should also read The Wheel Of Health by GT Wrench. <br /><br />This book gives details of McCarrison's experiments on rats, which provided confirmation for the idea that Hunza health was due to their diet. <br /><br />The authors of your article do not seem to have read this work, which was published in 1938 and should have been a primary source. Instead, they describe observations made in the 1950s, by which time Hunza health had declined due to contact with the West.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-60518479154260728042010-07-13T20:02:47.385-07:002010-07-13T20:02:47.385-07:00THE HUNZA STORY: FACT OR FANTASY?
Check this out....THE HUNZA STORY: FACT OR FANTASY?<br /><br />Check this out. You decide.<br /><br />http://www.biblelife.org/hunza.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-38677453278675775602010-07-13T11:15:42.160-07:002010-07-13T11:15:42.160-07:00Hi 30BaD,
If this person knows the right way to d...Hi 30BaD,<br /><br />If this person knows the right way to do the analysis, then why doesn't she do it? <br /><br />This supposed epidemiologist over at your website is trying to intimidate Denise, without actually offering any substance to the debate herself. If this person is a scientist, I'd like to see her start acting like one.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-5968595236764887022010-07-13T06:23:41.327-07:002010-07-13T06:23:41.327-07:00Hi 30BaD,
What everybody at 30bananasaday.com doe...Hi 30BaD,<br /><br />What everybody at 30bananasaday.com doesn’t seem to realize is that there is no indication that Campbell himself used any of the analysis methodology that they insist Minger follow. That was the whole point of Minger’s analysis was to simply show that Campbell did not use proper statistical analysis. <br /><br />That post about the proper way to analyze the data set applies to Campbell just as much as to Minger. You cannot hold Minger to a higher standard than Campbell. Campbell is actually the one who has a book out that many people look to for nutritional advice.<br /><br />Campbell has had plenty of opportunity to make public the analysis that he did use, but so far he would rather talk about some Weston Price Foundation conspiracy against him instead. <br /><br />If the people at 30bananasaday.com feel so strongly that proper statistical analysis must be performed, then they need to reject Campbell’s assertions on the China data outright because he has failed to even make his analysis methodology available. There is no way to document his compliance with the steps listed at 30bananasaday.com, so therefore he his in noncompliance and his assertions must be rejected. Unless he is God and not a scientist, then he gets a free pass…MontyApollohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04699359141359181115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-17417828311281913582010-07-13T04:28:49.311-07:002010-07-13T04:28:49.311-07:00Stanley
'I think what you've described fr...Stanley<br /><br />'I think what you've described from Hunza is a group of people who are sufficiently calorie-restricted to extend their lives, without being malnourished, in the face of a not-so-great diet.'<br /><br />Calorie restriction simply means elimination of 'empty calories' from the diet. The same effect can be produced by periodic starvation, because this promotes autophagy, which breaks down damaged proteins. The Hunza would not have needed periodic starvation because they ate no empty calories. <br /><br />Autophagy requires manganese. Wholemeal flour is high in manganese, and white flour is not.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-23388879440564340712010-07-13T04:17:44.086-07:002010-07-13T04:17:44.086-07:00The correct way to conduct the analysis...
http:/...The correct way to conduct the analysis...<br /><br />http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/my-response-to-denises<br /><br />Dr Campbell's response...<br />http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/campbells-response-to-denises30BaDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10539549409447226054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-11274298418767355292010-07-12T19:42:01.334-07:002010-07-12T19:42:01.334-07:00"My point here was simply that the Chinese po...<i>"My point here was simply that the Chinese populations who, unlike the Touli and Tibetans, had no easy access to meat and dairy, were probably malnourished even from a strictly vegetarian perspective. And I doubt they could afford enough meat to really be considered omnivorous (heck, people died for lack of grain in Maoist times). So the study fails to compare an optimal plant diet with an optimal omnivorous diet."</i><br /><br />I'm confused here. Dairy and meat eating ethnic groups were also very poor, in fact, probably poorer than people in eastern villages. During the Cultural Revolution, easterners sent to western provinces were shocked at the extreme poverty and poor living conditions. Western provinces remain underdeveloped today. Nobody in China was eating an optimal diet back in the 70s. If poor meat eaters had better health than poor plant eaters, it's pretty hard not to hypothesize that at least some meat or dairy is necessary for health. <br /><br /><i>"But in the meantime, I think that for this reason, the study has failed to test the effects of diet, independent of genetics."</i><br /><br />The authors of the monograph made very, very clear that the original study was intended to be descriptive, to provide data for forming hypotheses to be tested with specific studies. It didn't set out to prove or disprove causal links between diet and disease, so it didn't need to take genetic differences into account.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-48885308850529150342010-07-12T17:17:51.543-07:002010-07-12T17:17:51.543-07:00While Chinese today mostly eat refined wheat produ...While Chinese today mostly eat refined wheat products, rural Chinese on collectives ate very differently. I emailed a few Chinese professors of nutrition to ask about wheat consumption in the 70s and have gotten one response (it's morning now in China). Zhejiang University Professor of Nutrition Duo Li said in a brief reply that rural Chinese in the 70s ate whole wheat products and consumption of refined wheat flour was rare.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-76999891562493246642010-07-12T14:40:46.364-07:002010-07-12T14:40:46.364-07:00I'm familiar with this study from China, and t...I'm familiar with this study from China, and the various interpretations. Face it, the guy is against eating any animal tissue, so it's a no brainer that his study would strongly support a vegan diet. I do have to say, this "Whole Health Source" blog is one of my favorites. Been reading it for a while, this is my first post.<br /><br />- David<br /><br /><a href="http://www.aloe-vera.org/top_10_reasons_to_use_aloe_vera.htm" rel="nofollow">Aloe Vera 101</a><br /><a href="http://www.holistic.us.com" rel="nofollow">Holistic Health Info.</a><br /><a href="https://www.foreverliving.com/retail/entry/Shop.do?store=USA&language=en&distribID=001000733150&language=en&userLoginId=001000733150" rel="nofollow">Forever Living Products</a>"Guppy" Honakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00418432570902397757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-39844595487679178012010-07-12T14:25:25.615-07:002010-07-12T14:25:25.615-07:00Stephan,
I'm sure Denise Minger has done a goo...Stephan,<br />I'm sure Denise Minger has done a good job, but some one has done her one better. On the Amazon comment section to the book The China Study, Richard Kroker, who says he is an egineer with a PHD has done a multiple variable regression analysis on the China Study raw data that is fascinating. Please check this out. <br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-the-China-Study-Dataset/forum/Fx1YJPR95OHW08P/TxY4S5EZD8Y2XE/1/ref=cm_cd_dp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&s=books&asin=1932100660&store=booksDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05858644202713945988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-44491274463556798402010-07-12T05:35:45.545-07:002010-07-12T05:35:45.545-07:00@Stanley, I said, "I'll go out on a limb ...@Stanley, I said, "I'll go out on a limb and say that it is impossible to construct a healthy vegan diet from traditional sources."<br /><br />Your latest comment confirms this.<br /><br />"The simple fact is that it's already impossible to nourish the world with organic food, let alone real animal meat, because we have too many people and too little arable land. And if we're to venture off into space at some point, then the pigs and cows can't come with us. So despite the technological challenges, it's inevitable that humanity will become increasingly vegan."<br /><br />Unfortunately you may be correct about this. Another term for this would be "starvation", since we also would be hard-pressed to industrially produce enough nutrients to feed a vegan world.Tucker Goodrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09455436946187786398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-71364092746783694552010-07-11T22:13:53.554-07:002010-07-11T22:13:53.554-07:00@Robert Andrew Brown:
I think what you've des...@Robert Andrew Brown:<br /><br />I think what you've described from Hunza is a group of people who are sufficiently calorie-restricted to extend their lives, without being malnourished, in the face of a not-so-great diet. The cold temperatures would tend to reinforce this benefit. If they could afford to eat more of the same foods (especially the grains), then I suspect that they would tend toward dietbetes, like much of the urban Indian population, which is generally not living as close to starvation as these Hunza people. Still, it shows that can get away with such foods if you have iron will, or too little money. Interesting.Stanleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751902785581437089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-17467254826744891282010-07-11T22:13:28.053-07:002010-07-11T22:13:28.053-07:00@sonagi92:
Yes, you're correct that most Chin...@sonagi92:<br /><br />Yes, you're correct that most Chinese are Han. But I think you'll find that genetic differences correlate well with dietary differences. It seems to me that even in modern China, the people who eat more dairy tend to be more central Asians, e.g. Tibetans, with comparatively isolated gene pools. (The dating scene isn't exactly diverse at 14,000 feet!) I am of course open to being proven wrong. But in the meantime, I think that for this reason, the study has failed to test the effects of diet, independent of genetics.<br /><br />You're also correct that China has "no significant number of vegans", especially considering the suppression of Buddhism during the 1980s. My point here was simply that the Chinese populations who, unlike the Touli and Tibetans, had no easy access to meat and dairy, were probably malnourished even from a strictly vegetarian perspective. And I doubt they could afford enough meat to really be considered omnivorous (heck, people died for lack of <i>grain</i> in Maoist times). So the study fails to compare an optimal plant diet with an optimal omnivorous diet.Stanleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14751902785581437089noreply@blogger.com