tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post8536240949071087343..comments2024-02-25T02:24:14.972-08:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Humans on a Cafeteria DietStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger141125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-19867793579907561582011-10-10T10:34:45.070-07:002011-10-10T10:34:45.070-07:00Carbsane, forgive me for not doing my homework on ...Carbsane, forgive me for not doing my homework on Jimmy Moore, I'm not really a fan.<br /><br />Either way, a formerly obese person regaining weight on low carb simply reinforces the fact that his/her metabolism is screwed. It does not establish the fact that low carb overfeeding can lead to obesity in the first place. Every example on the internet would be similar. Find me one person who originally GOT OBESE while restricting carb intake.<br /><br />Rat studies don't really mean much, but again, 59% fat doesn't tell us what the CHO content was, I'm betting it would still be high in absolute terms. That's why percentages are misleading. <br /><br />It's an established fact among bodybuilders who eat LC that you can 'overeat' by a significant amount and not gain bodyfat. I'm not tilting at windmills hoping for it, I know for a fact that it DOES happen because I've been doing it myself for the best part of the year now. What I do want is the mechanism to be studied.<br /><br />bentleyj74, again, forgive me for not knowing Jimmy Moore's life history. I didn't think it was extremely relevant to the point I was making. Whatever junk he was eating or binge-eating, wasn't LC. It was high carb and high fat which everyone agrees will make you fat. No one argues that excess fat consumption in conjunction with high carbs is a good thing. You talk about gluttony, what drives it? How about wildly fluctuating blood sugar? Try being gluttonous and restricting carbs at the same time.Carnivorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14756205071285611210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-25281853161646119152011-10-07T11:05:15.333-07:002011-10-07T11:05:15.333-07:00There is definitely worse out there. I usually rea...There is definitely worse out there. I usually read up on these things before committing to any type of diet. There's a great site called http://GetYourDiet.com that talks about the hottest new weight loss trends. My favorite is http://GetYourDiet.com/review/xtreme-fat-loss-diet/Gadgetiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08609634634063978533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-29910216494386185162011-10-07T11:04:50.834-07:002011-10-07T11:04:50.834-07:00There is definitely worse out there...I usually re...There is definitely worse out there...I usually read up on these things before committing to any type of diet. There's a great site called http://GetYourDiet.com that talks about the hottest new weight loss trends. My favorite is http://GetYourDiet.com/review/xtreme-fat-loss-diet/Gadgetiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08609634634063978533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-47350930083583233822011-10-04T17:08:48.039-07:002011-10-04T17:08:48.039-07:00First time reader. Great information. I will rea...First time reader. Great information. I will read much more.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12322996601437259273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-89932138891444879782011-10-04T12:17:20.230-07:002011-10-04T12:17:20.230-07:00Question: among hunter-gatherer populations eating...Question: among hunter-gatherer populations eating their ancestral diet, is there a sweet spot in carbohydrate intake that associates with longevity?Stephen Boulethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04170061924588693181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-53575886320347676072011-10-04T11:24:55.058-07:002011-10-04T11:24:55.058-07:00This is an impressive site/ blog. Kudos to you.
B...This is an impressive site/ blog. Kudos to you.<br /><br />But sometimes I think scientists fall prey to the reductionist approach; they overthink the problem rather than just observing what's going on out there in the world. This is the true genius of WAP's book. It's as much anthropolgy as science. <br /><br />Gary Taubes' take on fat makes the most sense to me. Look at all those meat-based diets leading to true weight loss. I eat a lot of (good) saturated fat, few carbs, and I don't exercise that much. I have a lot of lean muscle; BMI is under 20%. I'm 61, but I weigh 40 lbs. less than I did a decade ago. <br /><br />Ed Welles/ eatwellmaine.comeat well mainehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00433601294917187419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-75707881570645620482011-10-01T17:19:40.668-07:002011-10-01T17:19:40.668-07:00yeh Jimmy Moore lost weight on low fat and on low ...yeh Jimmy Moore lost weight on low fat and on low carb through calorie restriction. He felt better losing on low carb - didn't feel hungry. But he started putting on weight again as believed that as long as he kept to low carb couldn't regain. <br />The way he became obese was not by eating the old food pyramid diet but by eating complete junk and lots of it.Suehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03181442844616803097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-247412928075700642011-09-30T19:33:07.594-07:002011-09-30T19:33:07.594-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.psychic24https://www.blogger.com/profile/02007506132069495095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-60019225924838831522011-09-30T15:27:39.241-07:002011-09-30T15:27:39.241-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05561132890400068010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-24760903838401573982011-09-30T15:26:35.454-07:002011-09-30T15:26:35.454-07:00This is an interesting paper
Effect of carbohydra...This is an interesting paper<br /><br />Effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on whole body macronutrient metabolism and expression of lipogenic enzymes in adipose tissue of lean and overweight humans <br /><br />http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v28/n10/full/0802760a.htmlRobert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05561132890400068010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-2690452714460066942011-09-30T12:10:21.210-07:002011-09-30T12:10:21.210-07:00Asim: Lipids are always the default mitochondrial ...Asim: Lipids are always the default mitochondrial substrate and only shift due to carbohydrate intake and metabolic derangement. The mistake that a lot of people make is in thinking that it's the fat they're eating that results in "fat adaptation" when in reality it's the lack of glucose. <br /><br />There is an amount of fat that zero carbers can eat that will cause body fat gain, but it's a lot more than for the average person since they're constantly oxidizing lipids and coverting them to ketone bodies for oxidation. This threshold can be pretty high if the individual is active.Travis Culphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02611059005476928227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-60088855388202694902011-09-30T11:46:09.007-07:002011-09-30T11:46:09.007-07:00"When you eat a meal with starch in it, the g..."When you eat a meal with starch in it, the glucose is absorbed into the bloodstream. Insulin released by the pancreas in response to the NORMAL rise in blood glucose will tell cells to take in more glucose and will decrease the release of fatty acids in order to favor burning glucose over fatty acids." <br /><br />Dr. Harris,<br /><br />1. What constitutes normal rise? Would this happen in a diet of any type of energy excess or one's where things like starches are reduced? This brings me toquestion 2.<br />2. What if we have a high-fat diet, with low carbs, meaning we are maintaining low blood sugar levels and minimal insulin production?<br /><br />Travis,<br /><br />"Few obese Americans take this route, but it should still be possible. You would just need to have a high insulin:glucagon ratio due to the constant presence of carbohydrates in meals/snacks coupled with a fairly large amount of dietary fat (that is shuttled to adipocytes) and very little activity, most of which simply results in glucose oxidation in the muscle mitochondria." <br /><br />Isn't this the basic premise of the low-car dieters that take in high-amounts of fat, with 'moderate protein and lower carb? Without the carbs, the insulin and blood sugar take is "low", meaning one will ultimately have to use fat for energy, meaning it becomes the primary source?Asimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12680880808056066311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-55231496985337902452011-09-30T11:38:32.380-07:002011-09-30T11:38:32.380-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Asimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12680880808056066311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-7262476238405791662011-09-30T07:53:22.010-07:002011-09-30T07:53:22.010-07:00^As you say, the diet itself was bad, but worse wa...^As you say, the diet itself was bad, but worse was the food that set off the binge eating response. From my own experience, were I to eat such snack foods I'd likely do the same (well, not anymore, but back in the good ole' days before paleo dieting).<br /><br />Someone can argue that fat can cause caloric gain all you want. I'm sure it does. I'm also sure that if one eats healthy fats and proteins with carbs mostly restricted to fibrous vegetables, binge eating is impossible. And as a former binge eater that's all I care about, and what lost me 80 lbs.Duke of Earlshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00797841599652750344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-53797214795666503402011-09-30T06:54:45.449-07:002011-09-30T06:54:45.449-07:00"Carbsane, Jimmy Moore got to 410 pounds eati..."Carbsane, Jimmy Moore got to 410 pounds eating the SAD."<br /><br /><br />I can't let that one fly Carnivore. His own reports of what his eating practices were like did not fit ANY profile other than binge eater on a permanent bender. He didn't have a renegade twinkie...he'd down a box or two at one sitting with a two liter of coke all to himself and that's just a snack. Remember though...gluttony has NOTHING to do with obesity. And that description doesn't resemble gluttony one iota. It's just that because of the carbs [you see] he didn't properly metabolize all those thousands of calories of healthy fats while being completely sedentary.bentleyj74https://www.blogger.com/profile/10392630441060383111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-17394050662453386822011-09-30T06:38:56.959-07:002011-09-30T06:38:56.959-07:00Carbsane,
From now on, if I suggest something I p...Carbsane,<br /><br />From now on, if I suggest something I personally think, I'll use "I" instead of "we" or whatever to avoid confusion. I'll stop this little back-and-forth here, but every time somebody counters your arguments, you attack a loosely-related point or quote and then label that person a Taubes/Eades/etc lackey. Of course, you always finish it off with another non-logical yet condescending remark that humors only your own group of lackeys.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05161850700121191487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-70534491421958211372011-09-30T04:39:45.973-07:002011-09-30T04:39:45.973-07:00Fat feeding causes widespread in vivo insulin resi...<a href="http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/251/5/E576.short" rel="nofollow">Fat feeding causes widespread in vivo insulin resistance, decreased energy expenditure, and obesity in rats</a><br /><br />I'm efforting the full text on this one. <br /><br /><i>Adult male rats were pair-fed isocaloric diets high in either carbohydrate (69% of calories; HiCHO) or fat (59% of calories; HiFAT) for 24 +/- 1 days. Feeding of the HiFAT diet resulted in a greater than 50% reduction in net whole-body glucose utilization at midphysiological insulin levels (90-100 mU/l) due to both reduced glucose disposal and, to a lesser extent, failure to suppress liver glucose output. Major suppressive effects of the HiFAT diet on glucose uptake were found in oxidative skeletal muscles (29-61%) and in brown adipose tissue (BAT; 78-90%), the latter accounting for over 20% of the whole-body effect. There was no difference in basal metabolic rate but thermogenesis in response to glucose ingestion was higher in the HiCHO group. In contrast to their reduced BAT weight, the HiFAT group accumulated more white adipose tissue, consistent with reduced energy expenditure. HiFAT feeding also resulted in major decreases in basal and insulin-stimulated conversion of glucose to lipid in liver (26-60%) and brown adipose tissue (88-90%) with relatively less effect in white adipose (0-43%). We conclude that high-fat feeding results in insulin resistance due mainly to effects in oxidative skeletal muscle and BAT.</i><br /><br />The BAT/WAT in rodents vs. humans is a big difference.CarbSanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17739915307890592327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-57189966978169999822011-09-30T04:19:11.021-07:002011-09-30T04:19:11.021-07:00Argh, comment spammers! How annoying. Stephan, I s...Argh, comment spammers! How annoying. Stephan, I suppose comment moderation would be too time consuming, with the number of comments your posts get?<br /><br />As regards the study, I don't think the overeating was driven by nutrient deficiency as this would not develop in four days. Also, if we are to replicate what an average person has available to them (if that is what they were trying to do), shouldn't there also be things like fruit, sandwiches, salads and so on. Otherwise it could be that they were just eating to the usual volume (interesting point - was food volume measured?) and of course this would be higher in calories than the same volume of less processed stuff. Did they control for volume eaten?<br /><br />As for the 'what things get stored as' argument, as far as I know, if it's not used - for energy, or for making bodily stuff (bones, hormones, etc etc.), then it is stored either as glycogen or as fat, or perhaps, in the case of amino acids, partially excreted.<br /><br />What I've found is that I can lose the same amount of weight eating a certain amount of calories in whatever macronutrient ratio - I eat processed food rarely. The difference was that if carbs are too high and protein too low I just can't stick to it. Also, high protein/low carb seemed to work faster and better (at the same calories as a higher carb regime) in the short term but actually I was just playing with my body water.Sarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13047019163857835364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-21491241054298305962011-09-30T04:13:50.872-07:002011-09-30T04:13:50.872-07:00@Carnivore: JM lost 170 lbs in 9 months in 1999 o...@Carnivore: JM lost 170 lbs in 9 months in 1999 on a low fat diet. He gained it back binging/going off the diet. This time he's regained some 80 lbs eating pretty consistently low carb, that is not an insignificant amount of weight. The internet is littered with folks who gain on low carb. <br /><br />You're tilting at windmills hoping for some mechanism by which excess fat calories are simply blown off if there are no carbs. The other study that I don't have time to look for now kept carbs at 150-ish and overfed up to 600g fat. They got a little sweaty at 400g and they didn't gain exactly 1 pound for every 3500 cal. <br /><br />I guess if folks are happy that overeating on a VLC diet results in more fat turned to body fat I won't break up their party.CarbSanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17739915307890592327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-88138516829474100162011-09-30T04:02:51.341-07:002011-09-30T04:02:51.341-07:00@john:
This is the comment section on a post on S...@john:<br /><br />This is the comment section on a post on Stephan's blog. So I don't get this:<br /><br /><i>Me: "Again, I was responding to the comments of others."<br /><br />Okay, but I was generally talking about people who are more well-known and respected, not random commenters with blatantly absurd claims. </i><br /><br />Comments on a blog are intended for discussing the post and often branch out into conversations between commenters. I guess I don't get saying "nobody says that" when that is a topic brought up in a comment here. But then <br /><br /><i>Me: "Eades likes to claim that at least you won't gain weight on LC excesses"<br /><br />This is a different than saying you can eat more calories on low carb! I don't care what Eades says; I care about making a logical argument. People claim they can eat more calories low carb; to counter that you have to show counter evidence. This is inconclusive. </i><br /><br />So now you don't care what a supposedly more well known and respected person says, you want me to provide evidence to counter the unverifiable claims of random commenters?<br /><br />This is not productive.CarbSanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17739915307890592327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-38868204544254299302011-09-29T23:05:29.498-07:002011-09-29T23:05:29.498-07:00Carbsane, Jimmy Moore got to 410 pounds eating the...Carbsane, Jimmy Moore got to 410 pounds eating the SAD. He then lost over a hundred pounds low carbing and if he regained some of that weight whilst continuing to eat low carb, that does not equate to becoming fat on a low carb diet. Plus, he already had a 'damaged metabolism' so to speak when he regained some of the weight. I have yet to see an example of someone originally becoming fat while restricting carbs.<br /><br />That study from 1995 is a poor one to look towards for comparing fat and carb overfeeding as it contains too many carbs in the baseline diet itself. I'd be more interested to see the study where they restricted carbs to 150g/day. It's at least moderately low carb, if nothing else.<br /><br />Btw, the study I referenced was just to make the point that fat overfeeding elicits variable responses and it's more important to look at individual data rather than the mean. The study was again poorly designed if you look at it because the fat was overfed on top of the baseline diet which was high in carbs. Not much can be gleaned from it but it does show that obese and lean people have different adaptive thermogenic responses to fat overfeeding and that EE can in fact increase to compensate for increased fat intake. <br /><br />When you say this:<br /><br />"This strawman again? Nobody denies thermogenesis. But if anything that favors carbs over fat particularly when we're talking about excesses. Carbs must be converted to fat to be stored = energy expended, while fat requires little energy to be stored. I've yet to see any study demonstrate a change in BMR or TDEE on low carb vs. high carb."<br /><br />You are basing your opinion on what is known. I am saying there is a mechanism (unknown?) whereby fat overfeeding on a low carb diet increases EE such that weight/fat gain becomes virtually impossible. What this mechanism is, I don't know. I personally have experienced this as have many others; eating ridiculous amounts of calories and not putting on an ounce of fat as long as carbs are restricted. If you haven't seen such a study, it's probably because it hasn't been done yet. That does not, however, make my own experience or that of many others any less real. <br /><br />What I'm hoping for is such a study which compares overfeeding of carbs and fat on true high carb and low carb diets, respectively. An adequate amount of protein can be selected and made constant across both diets. The subjects can be selected to be a mix of obese and lean people and the study should go on for a month at least. The results should check for changes in bodyfat and EE among other things to see how they compare for both the diets.Carnivorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14756205071285611210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-16722641506346730092011-09-29T21:29:17.106-07:002011-09-29T21:29:17.106-07:00Thanks for providing such valuable information, re...Thanks for providing such valuable information, really a great post and unique as well.<br /><a href="http://www.theswedishdiet.com/" rel="nofollow">Swedishdiet</a>john smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03735221562645026813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-76353906393636526042011-09-29T18:10:28.139-07:002011-09-29T18:10:28.139-07:00Kurt, wish I could articulate better my struggle w...Kurt, wish I could articulate better my struggle with the "raised setpoint" metaphor (I did say it was a quibble ;). Anyways, no biggie. <br /><br />BTW, I liked your comment on your blog about lipotoxicity and overnutrition. The focus on macronutrient ratios certainly seems to be distracting from the consideration/implications of routine overfeeding ... mostly of what Stephan calls "professionally designed industrial food."Beth@WeightMavenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17725838221780385439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-9319826466893077602011-09-29T17:15:38.551-07:002011-09-29T17:15:38.551-07:00@Beth
"I have some semantic quibbles with th...@Beth<br /><br />"I have some semantic quibbles with the idea of a fat setpoint. My (completely unscientific) preference is to view this as something in our environment, perhaps food toxins, that is overriding healthy appetite regulation."<br /><br />But that is equivalent to what I said. Overriding healthy appetite regulation is precisely having the setpoint set higher and maintaining it there. What else would it mean?<br /><br /><br /> "I.e., if removing problematic foods causes weight loss, is that lowering the setpoint or restoring normal function? Tomato, tomahto?"<br /><br />Normal function is not having abnornally high fat mass with ffa spilling out and IR and all the rest...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-5654461217694539392011-09-29T14:34:11.904-07:002011-09-29T14:34:11.904-07:00Kurt wrote: "I think generally certain food t...Kurt wrote: "I think generally certain food toxins or unnatural FR cause dysregulation of the leptin/brain axis and cause the fat setpoint to rise, which in turn makes you want to eat more to either gain fat to the new setpoint or keep it there."<br /><br />I have some semantic quibbles with the idea of a fat setpoint. My (completely unscientific) preference is to view this as something in our environment, perhaps food toxins, that is overriding healthy appetite regulation. I.e., if removing problematic foods causes weight loss, is that lowering the setpoint or restoring normal function? Tomato, tomahto?<br /><br />BTW, this discussion brings to mind a whack paper that Peter@Hyperlipid <a href="http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2010/03/getting-fat-is-good-official.html" rel="nofollow">reviewed</a> quite a while back theorizing fat was essentially the body's attempt to protect itself. <br /><br />If 10,000 years is insufficient time to adapt to grains, then 100 years is an eyeblink re adapting to perpetual caloric overload from nutrient-poor foods. Yes, brain/leptin are disrupted, but I also think downstream damage (especially wrt the liver) contributes as well.Beth@WeightMavenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17725838221780385439noreply@blogger.com