tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post9110643365667613793..comments2024-03-28T11:29:46.845-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Animal Models of Atherosclerosis: LDLStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-75341982373314214722012-08-25T15:41:41.924-07:002012-08-25T15:41:41.924-07:00What no one here is mentioning: herbivores are the...What no one here is mentioning: herbivores are the only animals capable of developing atherosclerosis. <br /><br />You can feed 200 X the amount of dietary cholesterol and animal saturated fat that a human normally eats to cats or dogs and they will never develop atherosclerosis.<br /><br /> What does this say about humans? The conclusion a 4 year old can figure out: humans are herbivores. And this why rabbits were used (and other herbivorous animals) in the studies, and why, though I don't support any animal testing, if I were to use an animal, it would be one that matches the human on all major accounts, like this comparative anatomy chart shows: <br /><br />http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/the-comparative-anatomy-of-eating.html<br /><br />For those promoting the low carb, high fat diet from Weston A. Price's website: <br /><br /><br />Guess what? Weston A. Price died from a heart attack at age 68. He's not exactly someone I would take health longevity advice from. Aerialrosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16456176841285180185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-22985398229582780242009-09-08T13:55:53.694-07:002009-09-08T13:55:53.694-07:00A great insight is that animals do not get atheros...A great insight is that animals do not get atherosclerosis – a fact well known to vets for the past 50 years. Animals produce an enzyme that converts glucose into vitamin C in the liver. Could it be that we humans are suffering from a form of scurvy caused by insufficient amounts of vitamin C which in turn forces the body to use lipoproteins in cholesterol to repair damaged arteries? Thus, atherosclerosis in humans and guinea pigs (guinea pigs and humans need vitamin C in their diet whereas all other mammalian species make their own) is due to vitamin C deficiency. The body reservoir of vitamin C in people is on average 10 to 100 times lower than the vitamin C levels in animals.<br />www.beatingcholesterol.comStephen Guy-Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14976098446061383960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-37254115570728837072009-09-08T03:41:14.506-07:002009-09-08T03:41:14.506-07:00Zone is a paleodiet based on achieve your personal...Zone is a paleodiet based on achieve your personal optimal insuline zone, not too hight but not too low. From its ratio 1-2-3 grams fats-protein-carbs, which is 40 30 30, you learn to increase a little and reduce more carbs to adjust your personal ideal ratio carbs/protein. Simply hormonal common sense.Adolfo Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12935975772477698491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-84236376742738597892009-09-08T03:40:23.801-07:002009-09-08T03:40:23.801-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Adolfo Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12935975772477698491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-50240360702217310192009-09-07T22:42:24.029-07:002009-09-07T22:42:24.029-07:00Carl M. wrote:If not monkeys, then what? Don't...Carl M. wrote:<i>If not monkeys, then what? Don't some monkeys eat insects to do with their fruit?</i><br /><br />Dogs and pigs are better choices. Pigs eat a lot of food compared to rats, however, so they are very expensive.Robert McLeodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05270962906437456350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-85054326216029842782009-09-07T15:28:55.407-07:002009-09-07T15:28:55.407-07:00Adolfo David,
I suppose it depends on how intact ...Adolfo David,<br /><br />I suppose it depends on how intact your glucose control system is. Mine isn't normal anymore and probably hasn't been for a long time (impaired first phase insulin response; sometimes delayed, then over-robust second phase insulin response). <br /><br />So for me I find a Zone-type diet is often still too high in carbs and too low in fat to obtain the kind of BG control I aim for (with low fat high carb foods my BG goes too high quickly, and then either stays there or a long time or rapidly goes too low). A diet higher in fat and low in sugars and starches seems to work best for me to keep my BG, weight, mood, energy level, etc. in a steady, even range. I don't take diabetes meds, just carb control and lots of natural fat. <br /><br />I don't drink as much whole milk as my son does (we use raw milk), but I do use a lot of cream. I've always disliked the taste and watery consistency of reduced fat milk, plus the sugars are fairly high for me to consume except rarely or in very limited quantities. And personally, I feel that industrially-produced reduced fat foods are too artificial and processed, including conventionally produced dairy. I'm trying to consume foods closer to their traditional forms. But YMMV. If it works for you, great.<br /><br />From the Zone Diet website:<br />The Zone Diet can best be described as a moderate-carbohydrate, moderate-protein, moderate fat diet that has approximately one gram of fat for every two grams of protein and three grams of carbohydrates (the Zone 1-2-3 Method™). These ratios represent the newest dietary recommendations from the Joslin Diabetes Research Center at Harvard Medical School for the treatment of obesity and type 2 diabetes.Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17033443643442246531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-67466923169707955882009-09-07T14:25:08.724-07:002009-09-07T14:25:08.724-07:00Milk has almost so much protein as carb. Maybe do ...Milk has almost so much protein as carb. Maybe do you consider milk a glycemic food as some studies point? I take only a glass a day of skimed organic cow milk or organic soy milk.Adolfo Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12935975772477698491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-79697757705486470272009-09-07T13:37:41.456-07:002009-09-07T13:37:41.456-07:00Hi Anna, I go on years ago Dr Barry Sears Zone Die...Hi Anna, I go on years ago Dr Barry Sears Zone Diet, no glycemic food in my diet so.Adolfo Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12935975772477698491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-16432268434329817832009-09-07T13:22:11.211-07:002009-09-07T13:22:11.211-07:00Adolfo David,
I eat a fairly high fat diet (thoug...Adolfo David,<br /><br />I eat a fairly high fat diet (though I don't calculate calories or fat %). It's easy to overeat fat and excess calories if also consuming carb-rich foods (milk is a good example), but if carbs are restricted, it's hard to over-consume fat (like butter) for very long. Without the carbs and subsequent insulin rush, fat just satisfies faster, blunting and delaying hunger pangs and food cravings.Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17033443643442246531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-63908124107575232542009-09-07T12:31:59.788-07:002009-09-07T12:31:59.788-07:00Everyday I am more convinced by high fat theory of...Everyday I am more convinced by high fat theory of Weston Price Foundation although I continue to think that Omega 3 and olive oil should be my main fats. <br /><br />I already took Omega3-enriched eggs almost everyday, probably I will include organic semi-skimed milk instead of skimed. I am thinking still about organic butter.. At the end they are all calories, and no one can take calories with no limit.<br /><br />Also I take everyday a lipid-soluble multivitamin and high dose vitamin D3 along with my fish oil. Supplements are not like drugs as I think you believe Stephan. Greetings!Adolfo Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12935975772477698491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-57368517127243511732009-09-07T12:29:08.525-07:002009-09-07T12:29:08.525-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Adolfo Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12935975772477698491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-36954786068908632722009-09-07T10:07:41.421-07:002009-09-07T10:07:41.421-07:00Welcome back, Stephan! Fantastic post, as usual.
...Welcome back, Stephan! Fantastic post, as usual.<br /><br />Carl M, not only are rats (and mice) cheap but so far, they don't have a lot of fans to protect them. The closer animals get to being "human" the more people object to them being used in experimentation. <br /><br />I think they should use humans. Properly informed, consenting humans.Sentahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02996306897347782114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-39484376791882499322009-09-07T08:18:57.142-07:002009-09-07T08:18:57.142-07:00If not monkeys, then what? Don't some monkeys ...If not monkeys, then what? Don't some monkeys eat insects to do with their fruit?<br /><br />Or, how about a baboons?<br /><br />I would agree that leaf-eating monkeys would be a bad model. <br /><br />Of course, the beauty of rats is: they are cheap.Carl M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01278814334603631598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-18279281662608031032009-09-06T18:40:31.611-07:002009-09-06T18:40:31.611-07:00Thanks Stephan for your clarification. Here is ano...Thanks Stephan for your clarification. Here is another recent paper from the Paleodiet group I would like to share: "Dietary fat quality and coronary heart disease prevention: a unified theory based on evolutionary, historical, global, and modern perspectives." - <br />http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Dietary%20Fat%20Quality%20%20CHD%20August%202009.pdf.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09917531397118353422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-3902017869947365532009-09-06T17:38:27.196-07:002009-09-06T17:38:27.196-07:00GK,
My interpretation of the literature is that i...GK,<br /><br />My interpretation of the literature is that in the long term (one year or more), saturated fat has little or no influence on LDL in humans. The only studies that found that long-term saturated fat feeding leads to higher LDL were comparing it to PUFA oils. Of course, that's on average, so it's always possible that some individuals respond differently.<br /><br />Primitivo,<br /><br />I wouldn't worry about that. If you look at the observational studies as a whole, the overwhelming majority have found no connection between saturated fat consumption and the risk of heart attacks. Only a small fraction have found any connection at all, and some of those are questionable if you examine them in detail. That's the dirty little secret of the diet-heart hypothesis. I may post on it eventually; I've been lazy because the post will involve digging up 10+ studies to support my point. Anthony Colpo has a great table of the prospective trials in "The Great Cholesterol Con".<br /><br />Oh, I just noticed you posted the Ravnskov article, that's a great one. He goes over a lot of the observational studies in that paper.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-74977138950163163532009-09-06T16:03:56.220-07:002009-09-06T16:03:56.220-07:00Bravo, StephanBravo, StephanDr. Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00843280918685270406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-54264871853294257842009-09-06T03:54:54.772-07:002009-09-06T03:54:54.772-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-13889702570576855522009-09-06T03:54:41.036-07:002009-09-06T03:54:41.036-07:00Primitivo
Thanks for the Ravnskov paper.
It is f...Primitivo<br /><br />Thanks for the Ravnskov paper.<br /><br />It is fascinating.<br /><br />I googled him.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uffe_Ravnskov<br /><br />Courageous determined perceptive and where does he find the time.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-22360014697149786052009-09-06T01:00:22.914-07:002009-09-06T01:00:22.914-07:00Dear Robert, thanks for those hints. Here is a nic...Dear Robert, thanks for those hints. Here is a nice article for everyone: "The questionable role of saturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids in cardiovascular disease." - http://www.nmsociety.org/App_Themes/Images/AboutFat/The%20Questionable%20Role%20of%20Saturated.pdf Regards, Ricardo..https://www.blogger.com/profile/09917531397118353422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-79769807733761710552009-09-05T13:45:32.886-07:002009-09-05T13:45:32.886-07:00Ah the old 'stuffing unsuitable animals with h...Ah the old 'stuffing unsuitable animals with huge amounts of foreign substances trick'!<br />Very glad to read this post, put me in mind of this article that I've been having to respond to lots of people about recently: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/08/21/0907995106.abstract?sid=d9291635-8525-45ef-b007-53285e5247cf after it was very badly reported on the BBC. It might well have already been mentioned on here: 'Vascular effects of a low-carbohydrate high-protein diet'.*<br /><br />Basically (if I've read it right) they fed mice the equivalent of about 6 large steaks per day and were surprised when they got atherosclerosis (but didn't seem to get any worse markers for inflammation etc) and so posited that it was these controversial sounding endothelial progenitor cells that were behind it.<br /><br />**Edit**<br />Just noted that it's covered pretty extensively over at hyperlipid.David Mosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08508780038542342811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-8335613789618099792009-09-05T13:43:04.481-07:002009-09-05T13:43:04.481-07:00My apologies for the deletions the system froze.
...My apologies for the deletions the system froze.<br /><br />Primitivo<br /><br />The study you cites states most foods were fried.<br /><br />Does this include the meat and cheese.<br /><br />Cholesterol intake rose with risk (Table 2)<br /><br />Cholesterol (mg/1000 kcal) 91 112 122 141 175<br /><br />Both oxidised oils and oxidised cholesterol in foods have both been associated with increased levels of oxidised cholesterol in the blood stream.<br /><br />Interestingly "Intake of ice cream, sour cream and butter was also associated with increased risk of MI, although the association<br />was not statistically significant."<br /><br />There is insufficient data on the Omega 3:6 intake. Soy contains some Omega 3, and soy intake falls with rising risk - but to what extent had the Omega 3 been removed by hydrogenation.<br /><br />Increased oxidised cholesterol and much lower Omega 3 intakes are factors that could account for at least some of the differential in risk profiles.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-2522316716707084092009-09-05T13:39:43.141-07:002009-09-05T13:39:43.141-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-10033841448510090192009-09-05T13:32:53.868-07:002009-09-05T13:32:53.868-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-24714321271561920342009-09-05T13:32:37.650-07:002009-09-05T13:32:37.650-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-16674156936433129362009-09-05T08:26:19.467-07:002009-09-05T08:26:19.467-07:00Dear all, if saturated fats are not a real problem...Dear all, if saturated fats are not a real problem, and I beleive they aren't, why do some epidemiological studies, like this one, find very unfavourable cardiovascular risks for consumption of these fats? Are there any major confounding factors here distorting reality? Stephan, need your help on this one! -> "Individual saturated fatty acids and nonfatal acute myocardial infarction in Costa Rica" - http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v57/n11/pdf/1601709a.pdf.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09917531397118353422noreply@blogger.com