tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post918824935055450078..comments2024-03-28T11:29:46.845-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Food Reward: a Dominant Factor in Obesity, Part VIIStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger96125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-60922982072002646122016-02-02T02:18:17.917-08:002016-02-02T02:18:17.917-08:00Thanks for this summary, Stephan, though I'm n...Thanks for this summary, Stephan, though I'm not sure I hold out much hope of ever reaching or maintaining level 4 or 5.<br /><br />I was interested in your brief reference to Seth Roberts. Many seem to dismiss the system he proposed as yet another fad diet. In the comments, I believe someone even suggests it might be a hoax.<br /><br />I'd be curious to know if now, nearly five years on, you still think there might be something in the approach he suggests to lowering one's set point and suppressing appetite.<br /><br />If you still think it could be effective, do you think the effect achieved is one that might last over time?<br /><br />If comments on this post are still reaching you, I'd be very interested in hearing your thoughts!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08041365851288385354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-67510271573070902242015-04-14T09:31:12.934-07:002015-04-14T09:31:12.934-07:00Hi Joseph,
Awesome! I've been reading a lot ...Hi Joseph,<br /><br />Awesome! I've been reading a lot about hunter-gatherer diets lately, and I think your statement is correct. Most of them eat single foods without salt or spices. Meat is usually roasted or boiled and eaten plain, fruit is eaten raw or cooked and also usually plain. Honey is drank or honeycomb is eaten plain. I have encountered a few examples of mixing 2-3 ingredients together in a pot. It's a very simple diet. We are accustomed to extraordinarily decadent food today by historical standards.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-5949275627240556622015-04-12T21:22:25.093-07:002015-04-12T21:22:25.093-07:00I wanted to share my experience with level 5 of th...I wanted to share my experience with level 5 of this diet. I am a 5'7" 130lb 19 year old college student with no need to lose weight but this diet has revolutionized my lifestyle. I used to think about food constantly. I found it took away from my sense of freedom. I chose steamed sweet potato, steamed chicken breast, and spinach (fresh or steamed) as my three foods without any seasonings. Previously I ate 3 meals and 2 snacks a day and never felt satisfied. Now I have yerba mate for breakfast, lunch around 2 and dinner at sunset though I feel like I could skip lunch, and only eat dinner because it helps me sleep. I have been losing weight but my 4x weekly intense workouts have been unaffected. Though I'm betting my appetite will return once I reach my new leptin setpoint. Most importantly for me, I have more time for studying and thus more free time, I feel completely satisfied (with food), I am more focused and attentive, less restless, tired, stressed and anxious. This way of eating feels like a much more accurate recreation of a hunter-gatherer diet and it has done wonders for my well being.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13241270325183878071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-87369122421609822292014-10-08T14:09:02.044-07:002014-10-08T14:09:02.044-07:00I agree with the Anon that said bodybuilders do it...I agree with the Anon that said bodybuilders do it all the time. The successful ones with the most size and great definition have this down. They are indeed, lucky dudes. It takes vision and perseverance to do what they do. They just eat and go. Don't even think about it. And you don't need variety and tons of different kinds of foods to get all the nutrients, etc. Healthy, whole food. The same ones seasonally over and over is the best way for your body to take in nutrients.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16003714923248523344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-15902309584271535662014-10-08T14:03:50.201-07:002014-10-08T14:03:50.201-07:00The title of this article just says it all, imo. I...The title of this article just says it all, imo. I believe it's not only responsible for obesity but for food addiction, as well, which is not necessarily the same. I don't like comparing myself to other cultures, though. That seems to be a big favorite for folks. My European heritage is certainly not the same as other cultures, who are more than likely a completely different race. It's like comparing myself to the rats/mice that studies use and thinking I will have the same results. Maybe yes, maybe no. It's just a tool. I bought the Shangri-La book. Yuk. Way too extreme for me. I don't think extremes work too well. I appreciate your writing about this topic and giving us some great ideas. Something to think about.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16003714923248523344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-53759691010701965582014-05-08T08:13:43.304-07:002014-05-08T08:13:43.304-07:00What the heck is wrong with enjoying food? one of ...What the heck is wrong with enjoying food? one of the most interesting things in life is the flavors of each culture and the way each culture uses spices (or not). This makes me sad. I get the point of it, but why? After you do this you appreciate food again even more? Well interesting information I suppose. To each their own. dguttgrl79https://www.blogger.com/profile/05804132970941933214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-72099077131788124292013-05-15T08:03:57.095-07:002013-05-15T08:03:57.095-07:00This is not all that difficult to do. Bodybuilders...This is not all that difficult to do. Bodybuilders do it all the time. The same few foods over and over. You need to tell yourself food is for fuel. You'd be surprised at the wonderful flavor a potato has without salt, butter, etc. You must train yourself to eat this way but if you're successful, the taste experience is incredible. After a while, it will become tasty, which may not be such a good thing for lowering set point.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16003714923248523344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-41714374756691211412012-07-31T06:34:13.447-07:002012-07-31T06:34:13.447-07:00This concept seems really plausible. My mother as ...This concept seems really plausible. My mother as a child in the Carribean ate lots of tubers without measuring and was very lean. Ive been following Jaminet's PHD. I feel great on it. But this says u shouldnt combine starch with fat, something we do regularly. So can I eat some protein glazed with fat in a plate before having a separate plate of starch n veggies?Beibichepehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12730426475386496839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-16764770274871446272012-01-17T21:03:53.620-08:002012-01-17T21:03:53.620-08:00> If it is a hoax, I complement
First time I e...> If it is a hoax, I complement<br /><br />First time I ever heard of Dr. Roberts was a CBC news piece on the Shanghri La Diet and this was my first reaction. <br /><br />I came around enough to read further IIRC about a year after that, when a blog discussed some of the studies Dr. R cited.Sanjeevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522727136330797375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-45449149865096085142011-11-30T08:18:28.146-08:002011-11-30T08:18:28.146-08:00I have a theory about the Shangri-La Diet...
I’m ...I have a theory about the Shangri-La Diet...<br /><br />I’m not sure if it's a hoax or not. It’s possible it's a social psychology experiment. Maybe Dr. Roberts had a bet with someone that anyone can write a popular diet book if they just use the formula. You can find the formula at www.sethroberts.net under Reviews and Media ("How to write a diet book..."). <br /><br />I suspect it’s a hoax but, then again, Dr. Roberts may himself be a true believer. What’s the evidence for hoaxiness? The subtitle was my first clue: The No Hunger Eat Anything Weight-Loss Plan. Legitimate, scrupulous doctors would be embarrassed to use that phrase. The second clue is that Dr. Roberts seems to be a former contributor to Spy magazine. This is precisely the sort of hoax the editors of Spy would concoct. The third clue is that he uses just enough quasi-legitimate scientific theory and jargon to rope in many readers. <br /><br />A 2007 article in the Journal of Molecular Medicine exposes a genetic variation that seems to prevent high fat consumption from contributing to overweight. The gene variant may be found in 10-15% of the U.S. population. Consumption of monounsaturated fats, as in olive and canola oil, almost seems to protect against overweight in people who carry this genetic variation. I’m talking about single nucleotide polymorphisms of the apolipoprotein A5 gene, specifically, -1131T>C. But you knew that, right? Nutritional genomics may eventually allow us to customize our food intake to work best with our personal genetic make-up.<br /><br />A number of people, including Dr. Roberts, swear by the Shangri-La Diet. It works for them. I don’t think most of them are lying. Maybe they are in the subset of the population with the appropriate genetic variant.<br /><br />It would be easy to design and execute an experiment on 100 subjects to test the efficacy of the Shangri-La Diet. Until that’s done - and it probably never will be - you could inexpensively try the Shangri-La experiment of one on yourself. From what I’ve read, you’ll know within the first week if you achieve the natural appetite suppression that substitutes for the willpower and discipline required by effective diets.<br /> <br />If it is a hoax, I complement Dr. Roberts on his ingenuity. His book was a bestseller in 2006. For those he may have duped, it didn’t cost them much and probably caused no harm.<br /><br />-SteveSteve Parker, M.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13127995984175635389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-3057345313204124902011-10-28T10:41:32.930-07:002011-10-28T10:41:32.930-07:00"No spices, herbs"
I second the request ..."No spices, herbs"<br />I second the request for clarification here.<br /><br />Some spices surely are rewarding, like cinnamon and maybe some hot peppers, but most would seem to me to be innocuous. <br /><br />Dr. Roberts has been recommending "crazy spicing" for some time - eating substantially differently flavoured food will block the establishment of the flavour to the calories <br /><br />My guess is that you emphasize the reward circuits and Dr. Roberts emphasizes the learning / habituation pathways.Sanjeevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522727136330797375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-87911145754492179402011-08-14T14:08:19.458-07:002011-08-14T14:08:19.458-07:00"No spices, herbs"
is this your persona..."No spices, herbs"<br /><br />is this your personal preference or do you have some evidence behind it ???Toivo Ellakverehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17753681912737673083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-34486914672632407932011-07-17T19:49:06.036-07:002011-07-17T19:49:06.036-07:00Stephan,
I believe your views have evolved somewha...Stephan,<br />I believe your views have evolved somewhat over the years (not that that's necessarily a bad thing); back in 2008 you seemed more favorable than now toward a low-carb diet. Do you agree? If so, why have you changed your mind?Adam Washingtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13177890127935077720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-68008399876950553702011-07-15T10:22:34.441-07:002011-07-15T10:22:34.441-07:00Stephen,
I've been alternating between low-ca...Stephen, <br />I've been alternating between low-carb and low-glycemic diets since January. The results have been good so far: I've lost over 50lbs, and am within about 10-20lbs of my ideal weight. As seems to be the case for most people I was having trouble with that last bit of unwanted adipose tissue. In fact, I'd been stuck at a plateau for over two months despite following a CKD very closely. I therefore took some of the advice from this article and made some very simple changes to my current low-carb diet. Basically, I reduced the cooking time for vegetables, which I eat a lot of, and greatly reduced added salt and saltly seasonings for everything I cook. That's it, and I've begun losing weight again-about 3lbs a week so far.(Even after I managed to eat an entire pizza on my cheat day). And I've not reduced fat intake at all. In fact, I've had bacon for breakfast three times this week, and I like to cook greens in the leftover drippings. Based on this experience, I'm somewhat doubtful that dietary fat by itself plays a big role in fat gain. It really seems like it has to be combined with salt, starch or sugar to cause problems. Steak, avocados, pork ribs, nuts, seem to have a low reward without salt and marinades and such. Animal fat, especially, is not very appetizing without seasoning, which explains why people not on diets still leave the fat on the plate after eating steak. Fats by themselves also cause a lasting feeling of satiety. At any rate, I thought you'd like to hear that your advice seems to work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-46096866075489272092011-07-13T12:35:20.821-07:002011-07-13T12:35:20.821-07:00Stephan:
Do you think meal frequency is a compone...Stephan:<br /><br />Do you think meal frequency is a component in the overall food reward of a diet? One of your previous posts suggested that occasional fasting seems to lower the setpoint. If the signalling of overabundance is the real problem here, as you and Chris M. seem to suggest, wouldn't fasting now and then be a pretty unambiguous way to communicate to your metabolic systems that energy isn't so abundant after all?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10576884487906269752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-85767360012083795982011-07-09T20:03:43.594-07:002011-07-09T20:03:43.594-07:00As far as boiling rather than grilling meat, is th...As far as boiling rather than grilling meat, is that to reduce the flavor reward? Or are you more concerned with consuming too many glycation end-products?Nedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12469188066893991884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-47508236416095602372011-07-06T15:33:21.770-07:002011-07-06T15:33:21.770-07:00I did something very similar to this for about a y...I did something very similar to this for about a year and it worked incredibly well with weight loss till I got pregnant. While pregnant I was not losing weight but I still had no food cravings. It did not matter what other people ate I really had no cravings for it. It was a wonderful place to be and I have not been able to get back there. But I've found this series inspiring and want to try it. What I did was basically a bland Rosedale Diet. I cut out dairy for a while and that's when it worked the best for me and the weight was falling off. I ate my fill of bland vegetables and meat and that was it. I didn't eat any of my treats of low carb chocolate and coffee with cream and stevia I'm addicted too. I gave them up and nothing I ate was anything that stirred up those cravings for food. It wasn't a miserable place to be because I did not find my food bad. I just ate to satisfaction and that was it. None of that insatiable craving for something sweet and then something salty. It just was. And I was much happier with my diet that way. But it took a lot of self control to eliminate all that I really liked and wanted to eat. :/Saponariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07031420094002885893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-87100469136497139782011-07-05T01:20:33.278-07:002011-07-05T01:20:33.278-07:00vibram five fingers
5 finger shoes<a href="http://www.classicfivefinger.com" rel="nofollow">vibram five fingers</a><br /><a href="http://www.classicfivefinger.com" rel="nofollow">5 finger shoes</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-33182807662043823642011-07-04T21:09:59.091-07:002011-07-04T21:09:59.091-07:00Hey Grammaticus. I don't know what Stephan wi...Hey Grammaticus. I don't know what Stephan will have to say about that, but I can tell you that dairy is a huge trigger food for me. When I start, I can't stop. 6 oz. of cheddar cheese in one sitting? A huge bowl of cottage cheese of full fat yogurt? A 16 oz. glass of full fat Jersey milk? Right over here! Right. Over. Here. <br /><br />It wasn't always that way. I've been bingeing on dairy most of my life, yes, but it was lowfat or nonfat. (I am not against fat. However, it naturally contains more calories.) So right after my lowfat days when I lost my preconceptions about full fat dairy, I was quite satisfied to eat two big tablespoon fulls of full fat greek yogurt and that was satisfying enough for me for practically a whole breakfast. But the same amount became less and less satisfying as time went on. Until a year later I was eating whole bowls of Greek yogurt, drinking 1/3 c. heavy cream daily in coffee, etc. As someone said above.... superdouching with fats. Of course, you can get the idea this is good for you if you spend too much time listening to WAPF. :)<br /><br />If dairy is a trigger food for you, I would cut it out entirely if you are trying to lose weight. I learned a lot when I eliminated dairy cold turkey. The extreme constipation I had most of my life, which I had no clue wasn't a completely normal phenomenon, totally disappeared. It definitely causes me to overeat.... but that's just me. I can't say that I've lost any weight cutting out dairy, but I certainly feel a whole lot better.Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10223664599729768316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-17044642120180914692011-07-04T19:12:16.604-07:002011-07-04T19:12:16.604-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Grammaticus.Sumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14192344522252162343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-69613903546991812922011-07-04T19:10:16.042-07:002011-07-04T19:10:16.042-07:00When attempting level 5, are dairy foods prohibite...When attempting level 5, are dairy foods prohibited? I've read about them being chemically addictive, and they are certainly extremely palatable on their own. Do you think L5 would be less effective if one of the foods were, say, plain full fat yogurt?Grammaticus.Sumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14192344522252162343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-69429611885667866572011-07-04T16:00:56.578-07:002011-07-04T16:00:56.578-07:00Great post, Stephan. I have struggled with my wei...Great post, Stephan. I have struggled with my weight most of my life. In high school and college I went through the cycle of gaining and losing roughly 40 lbs., twice. <br /><br />Since beginning grad school, about 30 of those lbs have been creeping up on me at a rate of about 3 lbs. per year. Sadly, I eat mostly paleo because I feel better eating that way, not because it makes me thin. I have been eating this way for at least three years, during which time I've had a net weight loss of perhaps 3 lbs. Frankly, I have found many of the success stories of paleo trumpeted on various websites to be depressing, because I can't figure out why it's not working for me. But I know I'm not alone, because more and more anecdotes like this are popping up on paleo websites. There seem to be a significant number of people who are not VERY obese that aren't really helped by paleo eating (in terms of their weight).<br /><br />Over the past month, I've been experimenting with Roberts' protocol and have found that it does decrease my appetite somewhat. I'm tracking the weight loss in Excel. Not much yet -- a few lbs. However, I'm going to augment or replace that with the bland food protocol you've outline here. I already do some level of both 3 and 4 but am now going to implement all of them. I'm not ready for step 5 yet!<br /><br />Commenter above: "I think this is an essential point largely ignored by those wishing to lose weight on an ancestral diet. The elephant in the room for paleophiles, which gurus such as Eaton and Cordain and other diet book writers are trying desperately not to face up to, is that food was boring in the paleolithic."<br /><br />I completely agree. Most paleo advocates tend to be foodies. Now there is a huge focus on making every paleo meal novel and exciting. Unfortunately, I think there is too much of an obsession in the low carb/paleo communities with assuring others that food can still taste good without refined sugars, grains, and seed oils. "See, look how much steak and bacon I'm eating!" I retort inside my head, "Great, but perhaps that's why some people like me are not losing weight on paleo and have even gained..." :) Frankly, I can't believe something so obvious hasn't occurred to me before. If food tastes really good, you'll eat more than you otherwise would. Yes, because for me to eat a lot of food, it has to taste good and I spend quite a bit of energy making good tasting meals. I don't snack outside of meals, but when I find myself eating at meals, I definitely keep eating past the point of fullness at times merely because it tastes good.<br /><br />Just FYI, your long term weight loss post comparing the efficacy of low fat vs. low carb diet really resonated with me as well. Over three years, I have done quite bit of experimentation and found that the level of carbohydrate in my diet has zilch to do with my weight. I can cut it to under 30 grams for weeks without a change, increase that dramatically to eating 50% calories as carbohydrate with maybe a fluctuation of a couple of pounds (glycogen). I don't count macronutrients anymore to reach targets. I find that I generally fall at around 30/30/30, or slightly less protein than that.Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10223664599729768316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-52977050180728979192011-07-04T13:05:46.901-07:002011-07-04T13:05:46.901-07:00Re: grains and reward.
Before I knew I was celia...Re: grains and reward. <br /><br />Before I knew I was celiac, I was vegetarian and ate a ton of grains. (One of my fave foods was plain french bread). I started getting intense cravings all the time, mainly for starchy (as oppose to sweet) foods - potato chips, bread, pasta. I remember after one really intense craving suddenly 'coming to' in my kitchen, with a mouth FULL of plain, whole wheat crackers. <br /><br />Once I cut all gluten out of my diet... cravings GONE. Literally, they just went away completely with no effort on my part.<br /><br />I have noticed 'food reward' happening in my own life, so I do think there's something to this... for example, one diet soda, and I want more and more. A really tasty starch, I'll want more (don't find the same happens with a really tasty protein). But in my case, at least, gluten grains (and the way they affected my brain and gut) seemed to have been the major culprit.Tracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17268626403040745983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-59128158718610529602011-07-03T19:58:54.727-07:002011-07-03T19:58:54.727-07:00If you've ever tried to eat gluten-free you...If you've ever tried to eat gluten-free you've realized that gluten makes a big contribution to the palatability of a lot of foods, especially bread. Gluten-free baked goods and tortillas just don't taste good. They can have all the fat, salt and sugar of the regular version but they still won't satisfy. The elasticiity of baked goods comes directly from the gluten. That's probably why wheat products tend to be high-reward foods. That's my guess. I don't know about the opioid stuff, that may be a big part of it but the gluten definitely makes them taste better.TCO348https://www.blogger.com/profile/15972478226700429070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-75699325645937390332011-07-03T10:18:40.113-07:002011-07-03T10:18:40.113-07:00Hi bentleyj74,
I'm no expert on binge eating,...Hi bentleyj74,<br /><br />I'm no expert on binge eating, but my impression is that the most common binge foods are high reward. Things like ice cream, cake, pizza, etc. But I'm willing to be enlightened if anyone has evidence to the contrary. <br /><br />Hi Gunther,<br /><br />I don't think grains in general have any special ability to trigger reward. Take for example the many lean cultures in Asia and Africa that traditionally ate mostly grains (rice, millet, sorghum, teff, etc). Wheat may have the ability to disproportionately trigger reward, but that's just speculation. It may be more about the fact that so many high-reward items are based on wheat-- cookies, cake, pastries, etc. I'd be willing to bet that even plain bread is higher in reward value than plain rice, due to the texture.<br /><br />Hi montediaz,<br /><br />Thanks for the information.<br /><br />Hi Beth,<br /><br />Yes, endocannabinoids are important in weight regulation and reward signaling. It is possible that they could be modified by the n-6:3 ratio. That has been shown in animals, but as far as I know it has only been shown under extreme dietary conditions.<br /><br />Hi Morris,<br /><br />The longer, the better. There have been dietary studies on LC diets that have lasted a max of ~3 years I believe. Over that time period, they appeared relatively safe to me, at least based on what was reported in trials. But disorders like CHD take decades to develop. I'd like to see a study on long-term low carbers who have been doing it for 20+ years.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.com