tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post114645194272413881..comments2024-03-28T11:29:46.845-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Food Reward: a Dominant Factor in Obesity, Part IIStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-64643279563670246582011-12-10T18:56:03.933-08:002011-12-10T18:56:03.933-08:00I realize this is old but I'm curious about th...I realize this is old but I'm curious about the "grossly obese" people in the experiments. How did they get that way in 1965? Early Corn Flakes fiends?Moldy Salamihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05716028326918873834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-43375021174918577012011-05-23T11:12:18.148-07:002011-05-23T11:12:18.148-07:00I wonder whether the nutrients that stimulate over...I wonder whether the nutrients that stimulate overfeeding are the NADs: sugar, fructose, wheat and linoleic acid?allisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00035675984343369850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-46769452447275018712011-05-22T23:55:48.755-07:002011-05-22T23:55:48.755-07:00I started eating paleo about 5 years ago now and l...I started eating paleo about 5 years ago now and lost 24 kg in the process.<br /><br />The weight loss has stopped and even reversed (slowly) in the last year as we learned to make our food 'nicer'.<br /><br />An example is mayonnaise. I always liked mayonnaise but stopped completely when switching to paleo.<br />The last year we learned how to make our own mayo from 100% olive oil.<br /><br />It goes great with salads, but, I realize now, makes it much more palatable and rewarding.<br /><br /><br />I'm willing to embark on an experiment:<br /><br />I'll consume 2/3rds of my daily calories as a bland mixture of 50 % potato flour, 20 % gelatin and 30 % odorless coconut oil. (when at work)<br />This tastes like... nothing (maybe a sweet aftertaste if you leave it in your mouth to long).<br /><br />For dinner I'll consume whatever the family has cooked after first eating a bowl of rucola salad (bitter and very fibrous salad = very little reward).<br /><br />I'll report back to see what happens.<br /><br />In fact Stephan, you seem to have a very wide and loyal readership these days.<br />I encourage you to take advantage of this and organize your own clinical trails using your blog and purpose created websites.<br /><br />I'll even offer to help.Anyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10839647244407841081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-34946519327129748832011-05-21T10:28:02.018-07:002011-05-21T10:28:02.018-07:00Stephan,
Food Reward in the diet is a Super Stim...Stephan, <br /><br />Food Reward in the diet is a Super Stimulus Food, is that correct?Jinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02326385594873672178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-61475128101279938512011-05-18T16:25:02.614-07:002011-05-18T16:25:02.614-07:00All this does is remind me that we're missing ...All this does is remind me that we're missing the boat by classifying food using macronutrients. I mean, glucose is not lactose is not fructose. They are sugars but really, what a difference in the endproducts from metabolism. Anything that the food industry, or any industry trying to make a profit for that matter, buys into, I just can't trust and this shows that if you can't produce consistent results in the lab with our "recommended" macronutrient classifications then you're screwing up.Canibalinhohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17123256605092843920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-18659940953597469672011-05-13T12:26:04.259-07:002011-05-13T12:26:04.259-07:00Stephan,
Based on your observations, what would y...Stephan,<br /><br />Based on your observations, what would you think of a plain (whole milk) yogurt diet? Plain for minimal palatability, whole milk because of the studies that you have posted on the benefits of whole milk. <br /><br />Milk by itself, has sufficient nutrients, I think, but certainly you could mix in lots of things to add value to the diet. For example, I have been following up on the benefits of dark chocolate. I could put unsweetened chocolate into it. I could grind in liver and (cooked) potato, plus everything else you mention.<br /><br />Your thoughts?David Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13048263385951483824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-70629593898456771442011-05-12T12:53:50.297-07:002011-05-12T12:53:50.297-07:00Leptin resistance is treated with timing and limit...<i>Leptin resistance is treated with timing and limiting anything that increases NPY.</i><br /><br />I thought that leptin resistance was still a mystery and that we didn't yet know how to overcome it.<br /><br /> <br /><i> Food rewards have only do to with the behaviors surrounding food searching.</i> <br /><br />So you don't think that learning that a particular food is delicious will increase actual hunger when we are reminded of it? What do you think? That somehow this learning will only incline us toward eating that particular food when we are already hungry for unrelated reasons? My own experience contradicts this idea.<br /><br /><i> And if your leptin sensitive rewards never matter because apetite is completely controlled. </i> <br /><br />So you don't think that eating hyper-palatable, energy dense food can change leptin sensitivity independent of metabolic factors?<br /><br /><br /><i>Orexins and hypocretin (where food and cocaine rewards begin and end) answer to leptin receptor sensitivity. Dr. K</i><br /><br />Are you suggesting that increasing leptin sensitivity cures drug addiction?TCO348https://www.blogger.com/profile/15972478226700429070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-371509803045528282011-05-12T08:54:06.234-07:002011-05-12T08:54:06.234-07:00Stephan: I've noticed that if I drop my nightl...Stephan: I've noticed that if I drop my nightly 2-3 glasses of dry French white table wine (highly palatable) in favor of a large vodka & soda (relatively flavorless but calorie dense like the wine), I can drop some unwanted pounds pretty quickly without making any other changes. I know several others who have experienced this effect. I wonder if food reward offers a better explanation for the effect than whatever differences there may be in the nutrient content of the two beverages. Great blog. Also, go Hoos.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10576884487906269752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-25930071185343570422011-05-10T19:24:15.634-07:002011-05-10T19:24:15.634-07:00"I'm in! We can use a blended combination..."I'm in! We can use a blended combination of potatoes, kale, beef liver, sardines, goat milk and beets."<br /><br />Would you suggest that one take a digestive enzyme supplement when on such a diet? After reading Don Matesz's articles on the bioavailability of non-cooked foods I've been considering adding a broad spectrum digestive enzyme supplement to my diet. <br /><br />This seems especially important in a "tube diet" because of the absence of visual, smell, and chewing cues to start the Cephalic phase. What do you think?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-37640789133517859832011-05-10T19:04:51.980-07:002011-05-10T19:04:51.980-07:00Does any of this play into the old stereotype that...Does any of this play into the old stereotype that happier people are fat? Meaning, are their brains more in tune with reward pathways? Would a person is emotionally "stone cold" have an easier time staying lean?<br /><br />Caesar:<br />Let me have men about me that are fat,<br />Sleek-headed men and such as sleep a-nights.<br />Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look,<br />He thinks too much; such men are dangerous.<br />Julius Caesar Act 1, scene 2, 190–195Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-23608482221493591072011-05-10T09:12:52.315-07:002011-05-10T09:12:52.315-07:00If someone's eating a diet of 100 kcals, are t...If someone's eating a diet of 100 kcals, are they losing weight through ketosis? Or at this point is the body just tearing muscle and fat and everything it can find?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-75724023247464779102011-05-10T07:07:44.622-07:002011-05-10T07:07:44.622-07:00Would the food reward theory explain the weight ga...Would the food reward theory explain the weight gain among Native Americans on reservations? Bread and canned vegetables don't sound all that rewarding.Nedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12469188066893991884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-2852078895290852012011-05-09T18:59:05.125-07:002011-05-09T18:59:05.125-07:00Leptin resistance is treated with timing and limit...Leptin resistance is treated with timing and limiting anything that increases NPY. Food rewards have only do to with the behaviors surrounding food searching. And if your leptin sensitive rewards never matter because apetite is completely controlled. Orexins and hypocretin (where food and cocaine rewards begin and end) answer to leptin receptor sensitivity. Dr. Kjohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11126132841611727249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-69022155427754784952011-05-09T12:51:40.350-07:002011-05-09T12:51:40.350-07:00Hi Stephan,
Is the mechanism known by which the f...Hi Stephan,<br /><br />Is the mechanism known by which the food reward system affects the lipostat?<br /><br />My fairly uneducated guess, based on what I understand from your post, is that the reward system could perhaps somehow feed back positively into the orexigenic neurosecretory cells that release NPY, and/or negatively into the anorexienic cells neurosecretory cells that release α-MSH. Doing that would of course cause a shift of energy balance, and therefore cause the point to which the fat mass settles to change.<br /><br />It would be a bit like changing the voltage of an electrical temperature sensor of a thermostat by putting a battery across the electrical terminals of the sensor. Even though the sensor initially is still measuring the original temperature, the value that is fed into the system is different due to the battery. So the system will eventually settle at a different temperature. (I admit, this analogy has quite some holes in it.)<br /><br />Another aspect of the food reward system obviously is the time scale of its influence. If the time between meals is shorter than the time it takes for the influence of the food reward system to wear off, then that would mean that leptin, insulin and PYY would never get a chance to do their signalling work "unimpaired". In that case it makes sense that someone stays at a higher fat mass, even though leptin has gone up.<br /><br />Previously I thought that the only way to interfere with leptin was hormonal (e.g., elevated fasting insulin). But having options to do it neurological does make sense. Perhaps that's also how subcutaneous fat mass is increased due to cold exposure.<br /><br />Fascinating stuff :-)<br /><br /><br />JohnJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03386692711267693179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-40737627999570014932011-05-09T10:47:03.282-07:002011-05-09T10:47:03.282-07:00Hi Jack C,
I disagree, I think food reward offers...Hi Jack C,<br /><br />I disagree, I think food reward offers the most compelling explanation for the US/global obesity epidemic. Our diets have progressively industrialized, and food prep has been outsourced to groups whose incentives are to maximize the rewarding/addictive properties of food. They can do that effectively whether the food is high-fat or low-fat. <br /><br />Hi Justin,<br /><br />I agree. I think food reward offers a compelling explanation for why people eat less and lose weight initially when their diet changes, but then plateau or rebound even if compliance is good. I've met several people who tried low-carb, it worked great for them once. They went back to their regular diet, gained weight, then went back on a LC diet but it wasn't effective at all the second time. That screams central nervous system adaptation.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-49777858637575374162011-05-09T09:44:06.652-07:002011-05-09T09:44:06.652-07:00I believe it was Jack LaLanne who said "If i...I believe it was Jack LaLanne who said "If it tastes good spit it out."MangoManDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06862778663716891573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-52224495408342306442011-05-09T07:25:39.290-07:002011-05-09T07:25:39.290-07:00What about the Japanese who seem to eat exremely f...<i>What about the Japanese who seem to eat exremely flavorful (e.g, umami flavors) and beautifully presented foods? Their foods seem much more rewarding and tasty than cheetos or pringles, yet they stay thin</i><br /><br />Also, umami is just the flavor of protein. You are not going to get fat eating more and more protein, especially considering it take<br /><br />Also, I don't know too many Westerners that would consider Japanese food to be flavorful. Most hate it unless it is drowned in some sauce. Even my own favorite sushi was unagi which comes with BBQ sauce. It was really the sauce I was craving.plutosdadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13236419805800673064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-29774423268503872572011-05-09T05:33:40.349-07:002011-05-09T05:33:40.349-07:00Great series you got going here and is hitting on ...Great series you got going here and is hitting on a few topics that have been top of mind for me lately.<br /><br />I'd like to throw in a line from neuroplasticity that has been echoing in my brain since I read it in The Brain That Changes Itself (h/t to Todd Becker for alerting me to such an awesome book): "nerves that fire together wire together." Tasty foods that are calorie dense teach the brain to crave these foods. The stronger and more in sync the signals between taste and calories are, the more the brain learns to want those foods over less dense, less tasty foods.<br /><br />As we experiment with different diets -- specifically ones that require a certain macronutrient content that is substantially different from our current regiment our brains haven't yet fired/wired -- aka learned -- which foods are flavorful and calorie dense on the new diet. Thus we lose weight ... initially. But as we learn the flavorful/dense foods on the new diet (btw low carb is a great example of this) we find weight loss plateaus. Our brains learn to game the diet to maximize flavor and calories.<br /><br />The solution I'm finding to this problem is to consciously eat blander foods. Also avoid diet drinks generally but specifically around mealtime as they increase the flavors you get with whatever food you're eating. Finally if you find you're eating or craving a certain food regularly (particularly if its calorie dense) there's a good chance your brain has as strong association in play and perhaps it's time to take a break from that food.<br /><br />Something like this is helping me break through on weight loss plateaus. Also, I'm finding myself asking as I peruse potential snacks or meals, "Is this really calorically dense? Really flavorful?" The more I can answer with the affirmative, the more I figure I should probably choose something else to eat.<br /><br />Eating non-seasoned meats that aren't fatty (Flavorful), unseasoned/buttered carbs (sweet potato), and raw vegetables = a pretty bland diet. I'd like to see anyone try and gorge on skinless chicken breasts and raw broccoli. Any takers?Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00668775655229235270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-28506612438133125372011-05-08T20:28:04.514-07:002011-05-08T20:28:04.514-07:00continued:
The same study mentioned above also fo...continued:<br /><br />The same study mentioned above also found that on a low fat diet (20% calories as fat) the insulin response to dairy fat was half of the insulin response of other similar fats. So low fat dairy increases diabetes risk as well as contributing to obesity.<br /><br />On a high fat diet (38% of calories), insulin response to dairy fat was no different than other fats.<br /><br />The difference in insulin and CCK response to dairy fat compared to other fats is thought to be due the the makeup of the milk fat globule membrane.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-10785626166632343472011-05-08T20:21:48.533-07:002011-05-08T20:21:48.533-07:00continued:
The second reason that low fat dairy p...continued:<br /><br />The second reason that low fat dairy products increase food consumption if the lack of fat. Fat is the primary trigger of the appetite suppressing hormone cholecystokinin (CCK) which is secreted in the ileum in response to undigested food and results in decreased food intake. It has been found that dairy fat increases CCK response to a far greater degree than other fats of similar makeup of saturated and polyunsaturated fats. Dairy fat is therefore a highly effective appetite suppressant. (PMID 14652359) <br /><br />Over 90% of milk and yogurt consumed is non-fat and low fat. The absence of fat and the presence of extra beta-casomorphins in low fat dairy will therefore contribute to increased food consumption.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-42275983953463132092011-05-08T20:14:05.170-07:002011-05-08T20:14:05.170-07:00While highly rewarding food may increase food cons...While highly rewarding food may increase food consumption in susceptible people, the theory does not explain the increase in obesity that has occurred in recent decades.<br /><br />One dietary change that may have contributed to increased obesity is the decrease in consumption of dairy fat due to government dietary guidelines and fad diets.<br /><br />Low fat dairy results in increased food consumption for two reasons.<br /><br />First, most low fat dairy contains extra milk protein. Most milk produced in the U.S. is A1 milk which contains beta-casomorphins, opiates that are released on the consumption of casein. It has been found that caso-morphins increase appetite as well a inhibit gastrointestinal motility, secretion, absorption and immune function.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-26367192286674941942011-05-08T19:51:27.925-07:002011-05-08T19:51:27.925-07:00to fill our your thesis here you need to fully und...to fill our your thesis here you need to fully understand the work of Luis de Lecea from Stanford on hypocretin. I still think your theories are interesting but not supported by the current bench top research in signaling, sleep literature or in metabolic signaling either. No support in my literature either in neurobiology and hypothalamic control. This is clear a recepetor resistant issue as most things seem to be in the hypothalamus. The clinical symptoms are a direct reflection of the receptor resistance. This is an area I follow closely and I don't see any current support for a set point theory at all. It does not mean its not correct but the theory should have some biologic plausibility. However, there is one area where I do think you and Masterjohn are getting warm on is leptin and leptin signalling. Insulin has never been the target. And if it was the be all end all solving type two or type one DM would be a an easy solve with insulin replacement. The ACCORD trial shows truly what an epic failure insulin centric treatment really is. I will continue to watch where you go.......we all can learn from probing. I like your systematic approach and thinking. That is why I read even though I am not a buyer. Dr Kjohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11126132841611727249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-28559561313594511362011-05-08T13:41:56.441-07:002011-05-08T13:41:56.441-07:00interesting.
I'm with Helen; i also don't...interesting.<br /><br />I'm with Helen; i also don't find those food rewarding at all (too greasy or sweet, actually quite revolting). the only exception is potato chips (of certain flavor)<br /><br />i guess i'm not one of those "susceptible" persons.<br /><br />things i overdo are a little different : dry roasted Macademia nuts & (100%) dry roasted cacao beans, sometimes potato chips, tangerine.<br /><br />cheers,Dr. Curmudgeon Geehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14484363083738134100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-1246298065020685282011-05-08T13:03:12.055-07:002011-05-08T13:03:12.055-07:00Don't you think that the average fat person 50...Don't you think that the average fat person 50 years ago was likely fat for different reasons than the reasons the average fat person is fat today? Given how different the cultural/food environment was back then, it seems very likely. This idea leads into something else I hope Stephen will not de-emphasize: the multivariate and uncertain nature of the problem.<br /><br />Stephen's great past posts about ancestral diets and the wide range of healthy 'primitive' diets have been very useful in deflating others' over-simplified pronouncements on what is a healthy diet and what the causes of obesity and other diseases of modern civilization are. By including the words 'Dominant Factor' in these posts' titles, though, doesn't that seem to fall into the over-certain camp?<br /><br />Excess fructose? Too high an omega-6/omega-3 ratio? Too much omega-6? Too little omega-3? Too much polyunsaturated fat in general? Too little saturated fat? Micronutrient (choline, minerals, etc.) deficiencies? Excess total carbohydrate? Superstimulating hyperpalatibility? Over-availability? Excess insulin (cause and/or effect)? Gut flora (cause and/or effect)? Lack of fiber (insoluble and/or soluble)? Multi-generational epigenetic changes? Artificial sweeteners? Endocrine disruptors? Sleep disturbances? Psychological causes essentially independent of all hormonal homeostatic mechanisms? I think psychological causes are often given short shrift because everyone can anecdotally cite someone who is otherwise self-disciplined and emotionally healthy but who is obese. This merely proves that psychological causes are not always necessary to cause obesity; it doesn't prove that psychological factors are not often part of the complex equation. <br /><br />I've been enthusiastically following Whole Health Source for over half a year now. One of the things that appeals is how Stephen admits when he is aware of an unknown or uncertainty. However, I'm beginning to feel that even he is susceptible to over-simplification and over-certainty, and that he appears to discount factors that we haven't figured out how to effectively measure.<br /><br />I understand that to effectively communicate an idea a blog post necessarily must leave out some details, but it seems the time has come for a <b><i>'Stephen Guyenet Flowchart of Western Disease, including Obesity'</i></b>. It would probably have a lot of question marks in it.David Pierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16326578313240027846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-71706274460954661202011-05-08T12:28:23.206-07:002011-05-08T12:28:23.206-07:00Hey Stephan,
I think this still supports the &quo...Hey Stephan,<br /><br />I think this still supports the "Calories In, Calories Out" hypothesis. If you eat fewer kcal, and have the fat mass to support your energy demands, you will burn the fat and lose the weight. <br /><br />What about fat people who are already consuming few kcal and, yet, are not losing weight?<br /><br />In lean people, consuming too few kcal will increase sympathetic/ stress control, and will therefore shut down the metabolism, leading to no weight loss, and even weight gain.<br /><br />Perhaps, based on your post, you would say that, even in fat people, until the fat regulation set-point is reversed completely (with effects extending beyond apatite/satiety, to include ability to release and burn stored fat) eating few kcal will still not result in fat loss. So, for instance, might it be true that eating 400 kcal per day of chocolate slim fats shakes will stress one out and prevent fat loss, while 400kcal of a bland drink with an otherwise similar nutrient profile will lead to fat loss? Would you say that the sweetness of the slim fast shake directly affects, for example, activity of hormone-sensitive lipase, carnitine palmitoyl transferase, uncoupling protein, etc.?<br /><br />I’m curious what your thoughts are on this.<br /><br />Either way, I still personally know many obese individuals who have consumed fewer than 1000kcal per day of low-carb paleo foods (relatively bland), and have had their fat loss stall completely after only a few months, long before they got anywhere close to “lean.” Switching to a cyclical carb diet seemed to be the remedy, despite increasing sweet and tasty foods (sweet potatoes, bananas, and occasionally pizza and cookies!) to provide the carbs on high-carb days.CelticPhoenixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03423757539805680613noreply@blogger.com