tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post1401573240583600968..comments2024-03-27T23:47:41.656-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Beyond Ötzi: European Evolutionary History and its Relevance to Diet. Part IIStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger183125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-55900580592621963912012-06-17T11:13:52.943-07:002012-06-17T11:13:52.943-07:00Very well done sir .Very well done sir .Shaista Haiderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18078270281788961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-29352283246381690462012-06-08T15:12:50.623-07:002012-06-08T15:12:50.623-07:00Hey Stephan,
I have always been interested in ana...Hey Stephan,<br /><br />I have always been interested in analyzing the diets of traditional Indians from India. I don't necessarily mean indigenous populations (though that would be cool too!), but just ancient cultures, either pre- or post-agriculture. Specifically, I wanted to see how healthy the traditional Indian cuisine (probably not what the Indigenous had) is compared to other diets. Indian cuisine is probably the most versatile when it comes to vegetarian options (still including dairy) and I was wondering what a breakdown of its macro and micro nutrients would look like. Do you have anything like that or know where I might be able to access such information? Thanks!Pranayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18434323151154511148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-73833674356210962862012-05-29T05:18:10.348-07:002012-05-29T05:18:10.348-07:00One adaptation that is counter intuitive, is the s...One adaptation that is counter intuitive, is the selection for small heads. Loren Cordain pointed this out years ago perhaps in not quite the same words.<br />The Neolithic diet/lifestyle leads to a smaller pelvis, hence difficulty in birth. Hence increased maternal and infant mortality. This is very expensive to the tribe, and is one of the most powerful inflexion points for natural selection.<br />Infants with smaller heads will have a safer passage through the birth canal.<br />Natural selection can favour that even if it means reduced intelligence. Better small head than dead. <br />The mathematics of selection you allude to basically fit in with classical evolution/population theory as espoused in the Logistic Function from the 1800's which is quite different to logistic regression. It was intended as a mathematical expression of Darwinian selection and still looks good today.BBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17999691181942775302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-70523444097601037282012-05-17T17:11:05.173-07:002012-05-17T17:11:05.173-07:00I agree with the criticism of the cholesterol grap...I agree with the criticism of the cholesterol graph plotted by country. There are far too many confounding factors to draw any conclusions. The MRFIT graph is much better, n=350,000. All cause mortalitly is lowest between TC 160 - 220 with risk increasing at lower and higher levels.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08658022911421424835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-32278253411978835812012-05-17T17:02:08.105-07:002012-05-17T17:02:08.105-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08658022911421424835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-30030585851442135862012-05-17T16:32:08.614-07:002012-05-17T16:32:08.614-07:00Frank you quoted
"Especially when evidence s...Frank you quoted<br /><br />"Especially when evidence suggests lower cholesterol enhances immune function"<br /><br />I would be very grateful for papers that support this statement.<br /><br />Here is one that from the summary does not:<br /><br />http://www.annclinlabsci.org/content/37/4/343.full<br /><br />Low Serum LDL Cholesterol Levels and the Risk of Fever, Sepsis, and Malignancy<br /><br /><br />"Each 1 mg/dl increase in LDL was associated with a relative reduction of 2.4% in the odds of hematological cancer (OR 0.976, 95% CI 0.956–0.997, p = 0.026). Low LDL levels also increased the odds of fever and sepsis between the groups (OR 5.3, 95% CI 1.8–15.7, p = 0.02). In summary, low serum LDL cholesterol level was associated with increased risks of hematological cancer, fever, and sepsis. "<br /><br />In the body of the text it says<br />"Moreover, during the past few years large scale randomized trials and observational studies of lipid lowering agents suggested uncertainty about their beneficial effects with respect to noncardiac mortality and major morbidity [3–10]. The explanation for an increased non-cardiac mortality rate is not clear."Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-75692429843753426642012-05-17T15:35:23.802-07:002012-05-17T15:35:23.802-07:00http://plantpositive.squarespace.com/blog/2012/3/2...http://plantpositive.squarespace.com/blog/2012/3/25/tpns-40-41-playing-games-with-your-heart.html<br /><br />Hope you don't mind Stephan if i'm linking directly to his website.Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04026811648499823323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-2317685916165331522012-05-17T15:32:09.924-07:002012-05-17T15:32:09.924-07:00Not quite impressed by this graph as it has been d...Not quite impressed by this graph as it has been discussed by Plant Positive in his series.<br /><br />(first, you need to know what he was saying of another graph)<br /><br />"Here is an example of the use of misleading graphs in the cholesterol games. This comes from a website called Perfect Health Diet. This graph purports to show the relationship between healthy life expectancy on the y-axis along the left, and the ratio of animal to vegetable foods consumed on the x-axis at the bottom, with each point on the graph representing a country. It appears that in countries that eat more animal foods people live longer, with Iceland all the way to the top right. The Perfect Health Diet people think this is pretty powerful stuff. "Take that, vegetarians!," they say.<br /><br />This graph is misleading, partly because it basically represents the food ladder, where wealthier countries eat more animal foods because they can afford to. <br /><br />Look at the countries with the shortest life spans down at the bottom left and you'll see countries afflicted with poverty and infectious disease like Angola, Mozambique, and Swaziland. At the other end of the spectrum you'll see industrialized nations with top health care systems like France, Sweden, and Denmark. I guess the very smart people at this site think the only difference between Lesotho, with its rampant HIV epidemic, and Iceland, with its complete universal health care system, is the amount of saturated fat they eat. Yes, I'm sure the vegetarians find this graph absolutely devastating. Good job, Perfect Health people!<br /><br />"<br /><br />And here's the critio he made of the graph Josh posted :<br /><br />"Here's another graph they liked on that site. This one shows all-cause mortality along the left and total blood cholesterol along the bottom. As you might expect, what's happening here becomes obvious when you again look closely at the countries. The countries with the highest mortality to the top left are places like Barundi, Mali, and Guinea. The countries with the lowest mortality at the bottom of the curve are places like Germany, France, and Belgium. Mortality rises again with cholesterol at the bottom right with places like Colombia, Uruguay, and Belarus. You see the same phenomenon is at work.<br /><br />There is more to this, though. Look closely and you can see the creator of this graph chose to plot infectious and parasitic diseases separately. It doesn't follow a U-shape like all-cause mortality does. It starts high at around the 1000 mark on the left and then just plunges to zero near the middle. This effect is behind claims you may see online that high cholesterol protects against infectious disease. If you buy into that belief then would have to believe that people with high cholesterol don't get sick much. That's an argument I'd love to hear a cholesterol confusionists make.<br /><br />Especially when evidence suggests lower cholesterol enhances immune function."Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04026811648499823323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-1833127693676701402012-05-17T13:48:49.651-07:002012-05-17T13:48:49.651-07:00Josh,
"... or on an even fancier graph - htt...Josh,<br /><br />"... or on an even fancier graph - http://perfecthealthdiet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/O-Primitivo-Cholesterol.jpg"<br /><br />Great stuff, thanks for posting it.<br /><br />I'm really shocked that neither Peter or Frank had anything to say about it. Truly, undeniably shocked.nothing91https://www.blogger.com/profile/10778017065078905610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-37259126950853901282012-05-17T12:35:25.815-07:002012-05-17T12:35:25.815-07:00Hi Peter,
I also shouldn't be spending this m...Hi Peter,<br /><br />I also shouldn't be spending this much time on this, but it's an important issue, so what the heck. I find most of your points and references to be mainly nitpicking around the corners- no offense personally intended. <br /><br />Here's the big picture, to recap:<br /><br />1) The effect of feeding SFA/cholesterol is not consistent and is of low magnitude except in "hyper-responders"<br />2) There are plenty of good studies showing the protective effects of animal-derived nutrition<br />2) TC is not a good marker of heart disease risk, being super-ceded by TC/HDL and particle size (possibly, but they appear to both be proxies for an underlying process)<br />3) The lipid hypothesis in it's modern form is about LDL receptor activity and the degeneration/modification of LDL molecules, not the absolute concentration of LDL <br />4) Substitution of PUFA's for SFA's has been tested and found wanting in controlled intervention studies, and the substitution of carbohydrates is neutral in those without metabolic syndrome (because the body will just make SFAs and MUFA's out of carbs anyways...) <br /><br />You will find all of those points substantiated by myself or Stephan in previous comments in this thread. <br /><br />I find it incredible that you cite the case of someone with a TC of 156 developing advanced atherosclerosis. Isn't this close to Bog's imaginary magical immunity threshold? How low is low enough? <br /><br />Your position requires that lipoproteins are basically and essentially bad- they evolved to assassinate us in the course of their presumably necessary duties, and that the best diet is void of animal products contributing SFAs and cholesterol, and letting the body synthesize these compounds entirely by itself (out of excess carbs and other precursors). Because somehow, when the body makes SFA's and cholesterol, and packages them into lipoproteins like LDL, it is not bad, but when the body packages SFA's and cholesterol from food into lipoproteins they are bad? Is all LDL bad? Even HDL? <br /><br />So we're back to Bog's all-or-nothing position. Like I said before, this cannot be refuted until a really good, randomized intervention study pits these competing dietary strategies against each other (in both a metabolic ward, and a longer-term follow-up setting). <br /><br /><br />ChrisChris Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07791413012165238990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-18981342130138497952012-05-17T11:38:21.027-07:002012-05-17T11:38:21.027-07:00BTW, a human being is not a carnivore and not a he...BTW, a human being is not a carnivore and not a herbivore. It's an omnivore, like a baboon.Asimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12680880808056066311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-57186828483086174962012-05-17T11:36:43.160-07:002012-05-17T11:36:43.160-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Asimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12680880808056066311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-63948649300134064392012-05-17T11:34:35.399-07:002012-05-17T11:34:35.399-07:00I can only laugh when I hear such ridiculous nonse...I can only laugh when I hear such ridiculous nonsense as the above:<br /><br />"Because humans get atherosclerosis, and atherosclerosis is a disease only of herbivores, humans also must be herbivores”<br /><br />So Baboons are herbivores? First your told, humans only get astherosclerosis. Then your told, only herbivores get astherosclerosis....<br /><br />What 'fact' are they going to spew forth next?Asimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12680880808056066311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-71783863327569814252012-05-17T07:00:45.723-07:002012-05-17T07:00:45.723-07:00Jane - Thanks for the magnesium / statin informati...Jane - Thanks for the magnesium / statin information. It is fascinating.<br /><br />Peter - studies on populations on pre western diets in 1930 - 1950 remarked that high blood pressure was almost unknown and heart disease was rare. These populations ate a variety of diets, and I am not aware of one that was exclusively vegetarian, and granted neither did they eat steak every day.<br /><br />Your arguments and links have been thought provoking.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-84160727118674231402012-05-17T06:20:31.439-07:002012-05-17T06:20:31.439-07:00'..I think we all have to recognize that the P...'..I think we all have to recognize that the Paleo diet has shown exceptional promise in controlled trials for treating glucose intolerance and early diabetes.' <br /><br />Do we have a study comparing a whole-food Paleo diet with a whole-food Mediterranean-style diet? Lindeberg's trial did not do this. His Mediterranean subjects were eating low-fat dairy, refined oils, and an unknown amount of refined carbs. The Paleo subjects on the other hand were eating nothing that was refined.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-87434737858763467522012-05-17T04:19:32.602-07:002012-05-17T04:19:32.602-07:00Statins work because they do what magnesium does a...Statins work because they do what magnesium does and most people have magnesium deficiency.<br /><br />'Since Mg(2+)-ATP is the controlling factor for the rate-limiting enzyme in the cholesterol biosynthesis sequence that is targeted by the statin pharmaceutical drugs, comparison of the effects of Mg(2+) on lipoproteins with those of the statin drugs is warranted. Formation of cholesterol in blood, as well as of cholesterol required in hormone synthesis, and membrane maintenance, is achieved in a series of enzymatic reactions that convert HMG-CoA to cholesterol. The rate-limiting reaction of this pathway is the enzymatic conversion of HMG CoA to mevalonate via HMG CoA. The statins and Mg inhibit that enzyme. Large trials have consistently shown that statins, taken by subjects with high LDL-cholesterol (LDL-C) values, lower its blood levels 35 to 65%. They also reduce the incidence of heart attacks, angina and other nonfatal cardiac events, as well as cardiac, stroke, and total mortality. These effects of statins derive less from their lowering of LDL-C than from their reduction of mevalonate formation which improves endothelial function, inhibits proliferation and migration of vascular smooth muscle cells and macrophages, promotes plaque stabilization and regression, and reduces inflammation. Mg has effects that parallel those of statins. For example, the enzyme that deactivates HMG-CoA Reductase requires Mg, making Mg a Reductase controller rather than inhibitor. Mg is also necessary for the activity of lecithin cholesterol acyl transferase (LCAT), which lowers LDL-C and triglyceride levels and raises HDL-C levels. Desaturase is another Mg-dependent enzyme involved in lipid metabolism which statins do not directly affect. Desaturase catalyzes the first step in conversion of essential fatty acids (omega-3 linoleic acid and omega-6 linolenic acid) into prostaglandins, important in cardiovascular and overall health. Mg at optimal cellular concentration is well accepted as a natural calcium channel blocker. More recent work shows that Mg also acts as a statin.'<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15466951Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-63180776117276420002012-05-17T04:17:22.829-07:002012-05-17T04:17:22.829-07:00Phew....
this will definitely be my last for now ...Phew....<br /><br />this will definitely be my last for now on, promised. Ban me stephen, if it isn't :)<br /><br /><br />@Robert, <br /><br />Great study about statins in a low-risk people. I think it gradually all comes to what the editor in chief of American Journal of Cardiology has told us for years,<br /><br />Evaluating lipid-lowering trials in the twenty-first century. <br /><br />“…Only pure vegetarians for practical purposes do not need statins, most of the rest of us do”<br /> <br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19406281<br /><br />In his landmark article, The cause of atherosclerosis, he went even further:<br /><br />"Because humans get atherosclerosis, and atherosclerosis is a disease only of herbivores, humans also must be herbivores”<br /> <br />http://ncp.sagepub.com/content/23/5/464.full<br /><br />NY times yesterday (may 16th)<br />Doubt Cast on the ‘Good’ in ‘Good Cholesterol’<br /><br />"I’d say the HDL hypothesis is on the ropes right now,” said Dr. James A. de Lemos, a professor at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center.."<br /><br />"The current study tells us that when it comes to HDL we should seriously consider going back to the drawing board, in this case meaning back to the laboratory,” said Dr. Lauer, who also was not connected to the research. “We need to encourage basic laboratory scientists to figure out where HDL fits in the puzzle — just what exactly is it a marker for.” <br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/health/research/hdl-good-cholesterol-found-not-to-cut-heart-risk.html?_r=2&hpPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904866274339527690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-81231505655045382612012-05-17T03:50:48.473-07:002012-05-17T03:50:48.473-07:00I've been watching the Primitive Nutrition ser...I've been watching the Primitive Nutrition series too. I'm finding it very interesting. He occasionally rubbishes people, like Stephan and Denise Minger, but he really can't be taken seriously when he does that. He even calls Stephan 'Goyenet'.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-34070170732405108182012-05-17T02:22:40.072-07:002012-05-17T02:22:40.072-07:00The meta-analysis of statins that Robert quoted cl...The meta-analysis of statins that Robert quoted claiming lower cardiovascular events and all cause mortality is interesting. So we have one meta-analysis showing that statins don't have any positive effect on all cause mortality even in high risk patients and another meta-analysis saying that even in people with low risk that they improve all cause mortality. How is the average person supposed to navigate this scientific minefield? Are statins really great drugs with a huge amount of evidence behind them? Can we trust that these studies are neutral when a multi-billion dollar industry depends on positive results? Are there major conflicts of interest - http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.nz/2008/08/conflict-of-interest.html ?Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08658022911421424835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-59119247266507051772012-05-17T01:05:18.602-07:002012-05-17T01:05:18.602-07:00Re Primitve nutrition links
I have been trying to...Re Primitve nutrition links<br /><br />I have been trying to watch some of the Primitive Nutrition videos, but keep finding my self sufficiently exasperated at what I am hearing to make very trenchant comments out loud at the computer.<br /><br />These links contain some great references and thought provoking material, but for me the material gives a strong sense the author/s are motivated at least in part by a strong animosity towards proponents of low carb diets, which for me clouds the authors judgment and objectivity in considering the issues raised, and in the conclusions they reachRobert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-56607802745342459962012-05-17T00:52:08.715-07:002012-05-17T00:52:08.715-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-43588325584044887772012-05-17T00:43:32.340-07:002012-05-17T00:43:32.340-07:00Today's news
"Interpretation
In individ...Today's news <br /><br />"Interpretation<br />In individuals with 5-year risk of major vascular events lower than 10%, each 1 mmol/L reduction in LDL cholesterol produced an absolute reduction in major vascular events of about 11 per 1000 over 5 years. This benefit greatly exceeds any known hazards of statin therapy. Under present guidelines, such individuals would not typically be regarded as suitable for LDL-lowering statin therapy. The present report suggests, therefore, that these guidelines might need to be reconsidered."<br /><br />The effects of lowering LDL cholesterol with statin therapy in people at low risk of vascular disease: meta-analysis of individual data from 27 randomised trials<br /><br />http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2812%2960367-5/fulltext<br /><br /><br />Nobody on the news is talking about the fact that cardiac diseases and hypertension were extremely low in populations on pre western diets, and debating if we should in hte alternative be looking more seriously at what we have done to the diet, rather than the prospect of mass long term 'medication'.Robert Andrew Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05181027811602620374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-8804115394149019492012-05-16T23:26:01.373-07:002012-05-16T23:26:01.373-07:00Sorry,
the Shai study was indeed randomized but ...Sorry, <br /><br />the Shai study was indeed randomized but it didn't help that proportionately the indidences of thickest carotid arteries were in the LC group.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904866274339527690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-44204977432868577592012-05-16T23:13:43.175-07:002012-05-16T23:13:43.175-07:00"I think we all have to recognize that the Pa..."I think we all have to recognize that the Paleo diet has shown exceptional promise in controlled trials for treating glucose intolerance and early diabetes"<br /><br />Sorry, I forgot this. <br /><br />A Palaeolithic diet improves glucose tolerance more than a Mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischaemic heart disease.<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17583796<br /><br />For the millionth time :)<br /><br />Primitive Nutrition 15: Define "Healthful"?, Part II <br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDbguStz4F4&list=PLCC2CA9893F2503B5&index=15&feature=plpp_video<br /><br />I don't think we need any paleo-hypothesis to explain this. I think it was even slightly bizarrre that the scholars enunciated this. The intervention group just ate more fruits, more solid foods and less calories and less saturated fat compared to the control group. Both groups were high on cholesterol. The control group ate more fiberless liquid carbs and thus showed 17% more higher carbohydrate intake but only 5 grams higher fiber intake. Again, the diet they fed to control group borne mediterranian diet only in its name. Mediterranian diet is low in cholesterol and high in fiber and obviously high in fiber-rich whole-foods. I think, neither of the diets were particularly healthy for a diabetic. <br /><br />Anyways, I had much good time debating. Now I have to seriously step aside, I leave the last words for you Stephen.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904866274339527690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-65033801464836468982012-05-16T22:46:01.151-07:002012-05-16T22:46:01.151-07:00Continues..
Unlike in the drug-free Ornish study,...Continues..<br /><br />Unlike in the drug-free Ornish study, 26% of Shai's partcipants were on lipid-lowering therapy and another 31% on a blood-pressure lowering medication throughout the trial. There's a valid point to be made that it took only the lowered blood pressure and weight-loss to induce the regression in carotid thickness. <br /><br />We've seen regression in carotid thickness even in plain blood-pressure-lowering drug trials:<br /><br />Carotid intima-media thickness and plaque volume changes following 2-year angiotensin II-receptor blockade. The Multicentre Olmesartan atherosclerosis Regression Evaluation (MORE) study<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19124398<br /><br />Moreover, Ornish study, f.ex did not just look carotid thickess but also cardiadic events, and that is what ultimately counts. <br /><br />I also wonder why did Shai stick only in measurements of artery walls? At this point we know that measurements of aortic valve calcification are more important <br /><br />I have to say that I am not too convinced about the scientific integrity of the Atkins folk and I have no difficulties understanding Westman's frustration over the fact that very few people are interested in these studies. IMO they are simple not convincing. I think it's clear that these studies provide us very little which would lead us to give a second thought on the role of animal lipids in the etiology of heart disease.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904866274339527690noreply@blogger.com