tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post1523308094875452857..comments2024-02-25T02:24:14.972-08:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Why Do We Eat? A Neurobiological Perspective. Part VIIStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-64648034045108142812013-02-25T03:08:55.489-08:002013-02-25T03:08:55.489-08:00Here is that article nobody has access to. Just to...Here is that article nobody has access to. Just to give the chance to everybody to read it:<br /><br />http://www.uploadarea.de/upload/wu2qfunwawruqvi9cxql8cwxn.htmldamnationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14679096418023504359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-37786089082523017492013-02-05T07:29:16.714-08:002013-02-05T07:29:16.714-08:00People who accept or lean towards a palatability/r...People who accept or lean towards a palatability/reward hypothesis of obesity get accused often enough of reverting to a gluttony/sloth view of obesity. At risk of generalizing while engaged in a diatribe against generalization... low carbers have a tendency to suggest that appetite is impossible to control, long term, unless carbohydrate is restricted. Are we saying that obesity is caused by gluttony and sloth? Why should the idea that restriction of palatability, and how we are exposed to food cues generally, controls appetite, be taken to say that obesity is caused by gluttony and sloth? In both situations, we are saying that a change in the environment will have an effect on appetite, body fat stores, and the tendency to be active. (At least, I seem to remember Stephan saying something along the lines of that last bit about activity).<br /><br />I don't think de novo lipogenesis is necessarily off the hook; de novo lipogenesis isn't just a source of new fat, it's also part of a signalling cascade that has effects on the storage of fat and the use of fat for energy vs glucose.<br /><br />Sorry for being so blabby. Usually social anxiety doesn't let me do this kind of multi-post.:)donnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02107555662488785352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-60020442419636869072013-02-05T07:27:57.050-08:002013-02-05T07:27:57.050-08:00Stephan and Dave, thanks for the replies.
Stephan...Stephan and Dave, thanks for the replies.<br /><br />Stephan said;<br /><br />"I think more research needs to be done in the area of blood glucose and food intake (despite the fact that a huge amount of research has been done already), but I can say with confidence that post-meal hypoglycemia (or "reactive hypoglycemia") is rare in the non-diabetic general population, including among obese/overweight people. Blood glucose will frequently dip below the typical fasting level after a carbohydrate meal, but not enough to qualify as hypoglycemia. <br /><br />There was a lot of interest in this a few decades back, and so researchers studied non-diabetic people who claimed to have "hypoglycemia" based on subjective symptoms. It turned out that almost none of them were hypoglycemic during the times that they were experiencing symptoms they attributed to hypoglycemia (hunger, brain fog, the shakes, low energy, etc)."<br /><br />As important as avoiding hypoglycemia after a large carbohydrate intake is maybe, how you get there. If the body is trying to drive glucose up, various hormones, increased consumption, etc. are available. Restricting intake, or meal length, might force a somewhat different counter-regulatory response to avoid undershoot of blood glucose--so that in an ad-lib situation, increased food intake might serve a greater role. <br /><br />Dave said;<br />-----------------------------------<br />What Stephan said about hypoglycemia. The insulin hypothesis seems to change, depending on what evidence one presents to the believer they are debating at the time.<br /><br />Back in the day low-carbers used to preach that the problem with carbs is that they are converted to fat. This is how they made the case for low-fat diets promoted by the USDA causing the obesity epidemic. But of course it turns out de novo lipogenesis has an insignificant effect on fat stores in the human body. <br />--------------------------------<br /><br />I think for a lot of low-carbers, myself included, while we may have started low-carb after being convinced by Atkins or Eades or Taubes etc., that "carbs drive fat drives insulin," we continued low-carb based on a more direct bit of information. We cut carbs. We lost weight. We think it must work somehow. If someone questions our ideas about how it works, it's only natural that we twist about, try to find a way for our direct observation to continue to be true. Perhaps, since the belief that insulin causes obesity was in a very real sense a part of the causual chain that made us healthier and lighter--that is, the idea that insulin causes obesity made us lighter, whether it's true or not--this makes us particularly loathe to give the idea up.<br /><br />That said, I don't think we can lump people who think that insulin leads to obesity into a homogenous group. We need to differentiate, in my opinion, between a very specific Insulin Hypothesis, pretty much synonymous with the Carbohydrate Hypothesis proposed by Taubes, and various ways in which insulin and carbohydrate might be implicated in obesity. continued<br /><br />donnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02107555662488785352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-46903858825462301762013-02-04T04:37:05.574-08:002013-02-04T04:37:05.574-08:00That paper Gretchen linked is really interesting. ...That paper Gretchen linked is really interesting. I just found another that might interest Stephan. While long-term intermittent hypoglycemia did not change hypothalamic NPY or POMC expression (Gretchen's paper), 1-3 episodes of mild hypoglyemia did.<br /><br />'Hypoglycemia reduces sympathoadrenal responses to subsequent hypoglycemic bouts by an unknown mechanism. To assess whether such hypoglycemia-associated autonomic failure is due to actual brain damage, male Sprague-Dawley rats underwent 1-h bouts of insulin-induced (5 U/kg i.v.) hypoglycemia (1.6-2.8 mmol/l) 1 or 3 times on alternate days. Rats remained alert and were rescued with intravenous glucose at 60-80 min. Plasma epinephrine and corticosterone responses were significantly reduced during the second and third bouts. ..... non-coma hypoglycemia produces apparent apoptotic cell death with reduced NPY and POMC expression selectively in the ARC. This may contribute to the reduced counterregulatory response following repeated bouts of hypoglycemia.'<br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10905492<br /><br />Please Stephan, write a post about this!<br /><br />Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-37051909319260884282013-02-03T12:28:25.388-08:002013-02-03T12:28:25.388-08:00" The alleged reason that insulin increases a..." The alleged reason that insulin increases appetite is because it supposedly locks away fat, causing internal cellular starvation."<br /><br />I'm no trained scientist, but even I can tell that this makes absolutely no sense.<br /><br />(Dave, I realize you are not contending this, you are providing what LCers contend.)<br /><br />The whole notion of internal cellular starvation sounds like junk science. Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00302261963164621064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-7062220553317218272013-02-03T11:10:24.067-08:002013-02-03T11:10:24.067-08:00I agree that UCPs are important and may explain th...I agree that UCPs are important and may explain things like "metabolic advantage." Ketogenic diets increase UCP-3 (the UCP in muscle), and ketones also reduce the mitochondrial gradient, which is what UCPs do.<br /><br />So much we don't know.<br /><br />Gretchenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019921800841883073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-65111307939238981142013-02-03T10:49:47.047-08:002013-02-03T10:49:47.047-08:00Hi Gretchen,
Yes, the hypoglycemia paper is inter...Hi Gretchen,<br /><br />Yes, the hypoglycemia paper is interesting. Intermittent hypoglycemia (once a week) caused body fat accumulation despite no change in fasting insulin, glucose, or glucose tolerance. Food intake was higher early in the intervention period, as expected, but normalized later. This is also expected because the counter-regulatory response to hypoglycemia becomes desensitized with repeated hypos.<br /><br />The thing I find most interesting about the paper is it proposes a novel explanation for why insulin-treated diabetics sometimes gain fat. It may be intermittent hypoglycemia rather than an increase in circulating insulin itself that causes changes in brain circuits regulating energy balance over time, resulting in fat accumulation. <br /><br />In the paper, they saw a decrease in UCP1, indicating reduced sympathetic stimulation of brown fat, probably accounting for at least part of the reduced energy expenditure they observed. This suggests alterations in brain energy balance circuits in response to repeated hypoglycemia, since these are the circuits that control sympathetic activation of brown fat.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-30755111063195174042013-02-03T05:21:38.783-08:002013-02-03T05:21:38.783-08:00I have neuroscientist friend who has an epileptic ...I have neuroscientist friend who has an epileptic son. I lent him a book on hypoglycemia which suggested epileptics have seizures when their blood sugar is low. He had his son take a 6-hour glucose tolerance test, and found to his astonishment that the young man has severe reactive hypoglycemia, like many other epileptics. <br /><br />It seems the standard 2-hour GTT does not find it because blood glucose doesn't fall below fasting level until about 3 hours.<br /><br />My friend is wondering whether the damage in his son's brain extends to the hypothalamus. If a damaged hypothalamus is common in obese people, perhaps reactive hypoglycemia is too, and we don't know about it because the standard GTT is too short?<br /><br />@Alex<br />Thanks, that's very helpful. <br /> Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-23153918641208424412013-02-02T18:17:21.868-08:002013-02-02T18:17:21.868-08:00> There was a lot of interest in this a few dec...> There was a lot of interest in this a few decades back, and so researchers<br />> studied non-diabetic people who claimed to have "hypoglycemia" based on<br />> subjective symptoms. It turned out that almost none of them were<br />> hypoglycemic during the times that they were experiencing symptoms they<br />> attributed to hypoglycemia (hunger, brain fog, the shakes, low energy, <br />> etc).<br /><br />Symptoms of hypoglycemia depend not only on the absolute blood glucose level <br />but on how high the person has been before and the speed of the BG decrease. <br />Thus, a person who has been going around with BGs in the 300s and then gets <br />diagnosed with diabetes will have symptoms of low blood sugar at what would <br />normally be consider high BG.<br /><br />So these people may not have had absolute hypoglycemia, but they probably <br />had relative hypoglycemia.<br /><br />A healthy person with a healthy pancreas would not have problems eating a <br />lot of carbohydrate. But having such problems usually means they have a <br />predisposition to diabetes, and they often develop it in middle age or <br />later. Of course, people with a predisposition to diabetes also often have <br />weight problems.<br /><br />> I still think it's possible that there may be something to it-- perhaps in<br />> a subset of people rapid changes in blood glucose within the normal range<br />> could contribute to hunger-- but it remains speculation at this time.<br /><br />It sure does in me.<br />Gretchenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019921800841883073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-1570667910563857162013-02-02T18:16:06.560-08:002013-02-02T18:16:06.560-08:00See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169787
...See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169787<br /><br />What is interesting is that the mice gained weight *despite not eating any more.* We all know that mouse studies don't always translate into humans, but it's interesting.<br />Gretchenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019921800841883073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-3818472587484722142013-02-02T13:27:55.851-08:002013-02-02T13:27:55.851-08:00> post-meal hypoglycemia (or "reactive hyp...> post-meal hypoglycemia (or "reactive hypoglycemia") is rare in the non-diabetic general population<br />____________<br />Every time I have this "debate" I mentally prepare for the other to come back with the small subset of studies that correlated low blood glucose to some (varying list of) symptoms. Sanjeevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522727136330797375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-76311517868433269562013-02-02T12:29:36.685-08:002013-02-02T12:29:36.685-08:00Donny,
What Stephan said about hypoglycemia. The...Donny,<br /><br />What Stephan said about hypoglycemia. The insulin hypothesis seems to change, depending on what evidence one presents to the believer they are debating at the time.<br /><br />Back in the day low-carbers used to preach that the problem with carbs is that they are converted to fat. This is how they made the case for low-fat diets promoted by the USDA causing the obesity epidemic. But of course it turns out de novo lipogenesis has an insignificant effect on fat stores in the human body. <br /><br />Grinchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09777059600105275295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-84398458185343411822013-02-02T11:19:05.915-08:002013-02-02T11:19:05.915-08:00Hi Donny,
I think more research needs to be done ...Hi Donny,<br /><br />I think more research needs to be done in the area of blood glucose and food intake (despite the fact that a huge amount of research has been done already), but I can say with confidence that post-meal hypoglycemia (or "reactive hypoglycemia") is rare in the non-diabetic general population, including among obese/overweight people. Blood glucose will frequently dip below the typical fasting level after a carbohydrate meal, but not enough to qualify as hypoglycemia.<br /><br />There was a lot of interest in this a few decades back, and so researchers studied non-diabetic people who claimed to have "hypoglycemia" based on subjective symptoms. It turned out that almost none of them were hypoglycemic during the times that they were experiencing symptoms they attributed to hypoglycemia (hunger, brain fog, the shakes, low energy, etc).<br /><br />It is clear that true hypoglycemia increases food intake, and post-meal glucose spikes contribute to satiety, but in between those extremes there's really very little evidence that circulating glucose is related to appetite.<br /><br />I still think it's possible that there may be something to it-- perhaps in a subset of people rapid changes in blood glucose within the normal range could contribute to hunger-- but it remains speculation at this time.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-52912342675057239202013-02-02T10:16:25.912-08:002013-02-02T10:16:25.912-08:00"The alleged reason that insulin increases ap..."The alleged reason that insulin increases appetite is because it supposedly locks away fat, causing internal cellular starvation."<br /><br /> <br /><br />I don't believe this is a full picture of how insulin might increase appetite and be a cause of obesity. Insulin doesn't just tell the fat cells to store fat; it also tells other cells (muscle, liver etc.) to switch over to a glucose metabolism, lower fat metabolism. But that's not really a can of worms I have time to get into this afternoon. <br /><br />I was referring specifically to hunger, not obesity in my post about potatoes vs potato chips. A very common idea among low carber is that hypoglycemia after eating a high-carbohydrate food, caused by an excess insulin secretion, causes an increase in hunger. Whether this would lead to obesity is another question. I don't think obesity is an inevitable consequence of insulin, just a possible one.<br /><br />Suppose somebody eats seventy five grams of glucose as potato, and in response, they have hypoglycemia. So they eat more potato. What's helping them recover from the hypoglycemia? The glucose. Now suppose they eat the same amount of potato, but as potato chips with 60 percent calories as fat. Of course the fat will slow down absorption--let's ignore that for now. Suppose the same hypoglycemic reaction. Maybe if you chose the right fat, this could even be the case.<br /><br />You've got the same 75 grams of glucose, but you've eaten much more. And then you need to eat still more, just to offset the hypoglycemia.<br /><br /><br /><br />donnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02107555662488785352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-63024666402428073642013-02-02T05:49:42.924-08:002013-02-02T05:49:42.924-08:00@Jane
Almost every day I eat a big bowl of fresh b...@Jane<br />Almost every day I eat a big bowl of fresh berries with a little container of full fat fruit yogurt, and the yogurt does contain honey, dried sugar cane juice, and maple syrup. And, occasionally I treat myself to some ice cream. I only eat out about once a month, and I'll have a burger or a wrap and skip dessert. I'm less rigid about my diet when I go out or visit family.<br /><br />I've had glucose control issues since I was a kid. But, moving to Fairfield Iowa and getting involved with Transcendental Meditation at age 21 set me up to believe all sorts of vegetarian dogma about whole grains and beans as ideal human nutrition. My young adult body could sort of handle that diet, but starting in my late 30s, the descent into middle age was not pretty, and by age 42, I had 30 pounds of subcutaneous fat hanging off an otherwise scrawny body. If I lay on my side in bed, my stomach would literally flow out onto the mattress. <br /><br />In September 2003, I cut out all the starch except for two slices per day of sprouted whole grain toast, with the rest of the diet being fruit, veggies, and meat. In 5 months, I lost 30 pounds with no effort because there was no hunger telling me to eat more. For me, that satiety is the beauty of low-carb, and in my case, it never required eating truly low carb. A few years after my initial weight loss, I ditched the last little bit of grain left in my diet. I was never into the whole caveman emulation thing, but my diet is easily recognizable as Sisson style, moderate carb "Primal".Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09092073414860334960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-82105275828243194432013-02-02T04:32:23.686-08:002013-02-02T04:32:23.686-08:00"If insulin caused increase in appetite due t..."If insulin caused increase in appetite due to its effects on blood glucose, you'd expect plain potato to satisfy this with less calories than potato chips, though, wouldn't you?"<br /><br />Not sure I follow you. The alleged reason that insulin increases appetite is because it supposedly locks away fat, causing internal cellular starvation. This would only work if hyperinsulinemia occurred without insulin resistance, which seldom seems to be the case. Usually they both happen at the same time, so when someone is obese and insulin resistant, they are having trouble keeping fat locked away. <br /><br />So in the context of common obesity, it makes no sense that insulin would cause increased hunger because of fat being locked away.<br /><br />My own anecdotes show that the only carb that causes me to overeat is sugar, and I think its because sugary foods are the only ones I can eat while my stomach is literally stuffed. I believe my desire to eat sugar is in the brain, not due to insulin's effect on fat tissue.Grinchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09777059600105275295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-83205600170518563972013-02-02T03:34:37.637-08:002013-02-02T03:34:37.637-08:00Hello good post about for health activeness. Yeah ...Hello good post about for health activeness. Yeah my mother always active for my health when i was school boy. My mother gave me healthy food with rice and green vegetable and your post tell us good knowledge about for good health and good looking future. <br /><a href="http://www.bakerharrislaw.com/" rel="nofollow">Help with insurance Blackfoot </a>is good insurance company for Idaho, Blackfoot and Pocatello.Nathan123https://www.blogger.com/profile/12681224635577616735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-71773581578349461162013-02-02T03:15:55.661-08:002013-02-02T03:15:55.661-08:00@Sara
Liked your article.
@Alex
Could I ask you p...@Sara<br />Liked your article.<br /><br />@Alex<br />Could I ask you please, do you ever eat refined carbs? If you don't, how long is it since you gave them up, and how do you manage when you get invited out and refined carbs are on the menu?<br /><br />I ask because the hunger you get from eating starch may be because your pancreas is not working properly and cannot keep your blood sugar stable. A lifetime of eating refined carbs means in theory, nutritional deficiencies and possibly, a poorly functioning pancreas, not bad enough to be diabetic but enough to cause problems eating starch.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-37833420938870384612013-02-01T18:21:19.645-08:002013-02-01T18:21:19.645-08:00I do experience an increase in hunger with starchy...I do experience an increase in hunger with starchy carbs; in sufficient quantity, the hunger is voracious and gnawing. I eat ad libitum, and in general, starch eaten on a regular basis increases my appetite and drives me to overeat. Fortunately for me, the fruit I eat doesn't have that effect. <br /><br />At the opposite end of the spectrum, protein and fat provide amazing satiety. E.g., the other day I had an 8oz grass-fed ribeye and half an onion sauteed in a little butter for breakfast before driving out of town. I ate nothing while I was out and didn't get home until 7 hours later. At that point, I was hungry, but the hunger impulses were very mild.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09092073414860334960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-66688981604297553622013-02-01T17:41:51.687-08:002013-02-01T17:41:51.687-08:00Is it ok to link to a blog post I wrote on this (e...Is it ok to link to a blog post I wrote on this (environmental influences on eating)?<br /><br />Moderate me if you don't like self blog pimping.<br /><br />http://www.fittoblog.org/2012/05/world-wants-you-to-eat-it.html<br /><br />That was all based on a couple of journal articles I read by Prof. Wansink.<br /><br />As regards carbs making you 'hungrier', I've experienced this, but I wouldn't say it was true, stomach growling hunger (except if the carby meal was really insubstantial). What I get is my brain remembering how yummy carbs are and then demanding more of them. Now that I expect that, I can control it. It's not real hunger, it's just 'wanting more of that'.<br />Sarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13047019163857835364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-70061298581954939212013-02-01T13:42:44.859-08:002013-02-01T13:42:44.859-08:00Dave said;
But when we start looking at foods lik...Dave said;<br /><br />But when we start looking at foods like baked potatoes that are high in carbs and not all that palatable, they don't have the same effect. Probably because insulin isn't the reason that people overeat these other foods.<br />----------------------------<br />If insulin caused increase in appetite due to its effects on blood glucose, you'd expect plain potato to satisfy this with less calories than potato chips, though, wouldn't you?donnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02107555662488785352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-20754905245668649362013-02-01T10:12:03.851-08:002013-02-01T10:12:03.851-08:00Peter is (once again) a goner.
So tired of the tr...Peter is (once again) a goner.<br /><br />So tired of the trolls. Comment moderation is coming soon.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-54431943111372400542013-02-01T08:03:07.744-08:002013-02-01T08:03:07.744-08:00"Peter's on the (s)troll again."
We..."Peter's on the (s)troll again."<br /><br />Well what do you expect now that his other troll account (Bog) is banned from posting comments here.<br /><br />Just proves what we all already knew -- veganism causes mental instability, which in turn causes a guy like Peter (who's probably relatively normal in-person) to troll the blogs of those with whom he disagrees in order to get his anger out. Nothing surprising there. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-27912782584252030522013-02-01T06:59:45.648-08:002013-02-01T06:59:45.648-08:00@Gretchen,
I don't think that social aspects ...@Gretchen,<br /><br />I don't think that social aspects of eating are off topic at all. Eating among human beings is a supremely social act. Otherwise why else would entire populations show such different levels of obesity? The Japanese eat differently than Americans, they have lower obesity levels. <br /><br />I used to binge alone. Never in public. No fat person is ever going to admit to a researcher that they binge eat.Dianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00302261963164621064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-30528611652745106562013-02-01T06:16:42.871-08:002013-02-01T06:16:42.871-08:00Finally, comment moderation comes to WHS. For all ...Finally, comment moderation comes to WHS. For all those naughty boys and girls who even think of using insulin and carbs in the same sentence, you have been warned!Dapkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09525159642209655680noreply@blogger.com