tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post2104712969437521884..comments2024-03-28T11:29:46.845-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: In Search of Traditional Asian DietsStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-74793582240986971292014-10-09T05:06:33.128-07:002014-10-09T05:06:33.128-07:00I have no doubt that diets that are extremely defi...I have no doubt that diets that are extremely deficient cause stunting of growth. Outside of that there is a wide range of genetic variance for size. It just isn't true that everybody has the genetic capability to grow to six feet or taller if they get more protein or fat soluble vitamins and minerals. I have known people who most likely didn't get optimal nutrition and are huge and people who did who are small. lisaohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14360700674622979187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-38330098583680433122014-03-28T16:50:21.221-07:002014-03-28T16:50:21.221-07:00a fascinating and informative discussion indeed - ...a fascinating and informative discussion indeed - thanks everyone for your interesting comments !<br /><br />I have a Taiwanese partner who keeps me healthy with lots of green vegs and noodles - not so much rice - but right now she's cooking rice congee for breakfast.<br /><br />poverty and insufficient diets - I've read that rice paddies was a way the Chinese emperor kept the people stable - requiring rice paddies needing daily maintenance so they wouldn't invade the cities and protest!<br /><br />affluenza - Okinawa kids growing fat and unhealthy on McDonalds while their 100yo grandparents like their fish, seaweed and hard work<br /><br />yeah - we may feel advanced with our refrigerated processed convenience foods in shrink-wrap plastic - but when I go food shopping in Taiwan, it's just right outside downstairs to the local wet market where I see live shrimp and fish swimming in tanks, and chicken in cages ready for selection and fresh kill to take upstairs to cook - you can't beat that for freshness ! <br /><br />I also remember a river boat trip near Hanoi - got off near some hill temple to see a hut display of five colours of freshly steamed sweet potato - I took a taste - delicious ! - and offered some to a passing US couple who were about to just walk past - they tasted - wow ! thank you for that - they would never have known how simple and delicious a local grown fresh root vegetable could be - simple and sweet - perfect !frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09382432274897055393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-17054295699371599592013-10-23T11:55:19.190-07:002013-10-23T11:55:19.190-07:00Asian food practices and traditions are regional, ...Asian food practices and traditions are regional, much like in the West, but more so as the ingredients are in the thousands from spices to herbs to vegetables, meats and seafood. Rice is not eaten everywhere, for where it doesn't grow, noodles, breads and sweet potatoes are enjoyed. Vegetables are eaten in abundance, while the more expensive meats less so. Seafood is mostly enjoyed in the coastal regions. You've tackled a huge subject, which can't be answered fully in a single post, considering that food practices in Asia have a medicinal component based on thousands of years of evolution in the kitchen. In order to understand Asian diets, you also need to consider the lack of refrigeration in many Asian countries, still to this day. Best, www.corinnetrang.com, by way of introduction.ctranghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08317156957252054120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-28641692790622941082013-05-06T16:02:22.155-07:002013-05-06T16:02:22.155-07:00Hi Unknown,
Good points (same to the many other c...Hi Unknown,<br /><br />Good points (same to the many other commenters who have added valuable information). I've been reading more about historical Asian diets lately (some of it in the book "1493" by Charles Mann-- a great read), and what emerges is a dynamic history of dietary change over the last 500 years. <br /><br />Rice has been a major staple in much of Asia for thousands of years, but it was cultivated in the lowlands because it didn't grow well at elevation (wheat was also cultivated in Northern China and Northern India). Cultures with complex governments like China had the organization to distribute rice to areas that were not suitable for rice agriculture (making its consumption more widespread in these areas). When sweet potatoes, corn (maize), and potatoes were imported to Asia after Europeans invaded South America, Asians were able to grow food at higher altitudes and on previously non-arable land. The population exploded and diets shifted away from rice somewhat.<br /><br />I think your comment is right on, but one thing I would add is that the average Asian person probably didn't eat white rice until the development of modern rice polishing mills in the 20th century. Prior to that, you could make white rice but it was so labor intensive that only the rich could afford it. My understanding is that everyone else ate partially milled rice that was pounded to remove most of the bran (if you keep pounding, it eventually turns into white rice). Some subsistence farmers in India still prepare their rice like this.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-55199407881924894932013-05-06T15:15:34.625-07:002013-05-06T15:15:34.625-07:00In Thailand the food is about 70% white Jasmine ri...In Thailand the food is about 70% white Jasmine rice. White rice is by far the most eaten food and is absolutely essential to every meal. As elsewhere in Asia, the word for eat in Thai is "eat rice", so fundamental is rice considered. Aside from rice, very small amounts of meat and veggies are eaten, usually fried in some kind of fat. Soups and noodles are also eaten, but not with the same frequency as rice. <br /><br />Thais are exceptionally thin and seemingly quite healthy. <br /><br />Rice is similarly dominant in Laos, Indonesia, Cambodia, and Vietnam, although in the last 3 countries a kind of French bread is commonly eaten, but is usually made either entirely or partially of rice flour. People in all these countries are exceptionally thin.<br /><br />I have not spent much time in Japan, but from the little I have, and from the ubiquitous Japanese restaurants catering to the Japanese expatriate community in Bangkok, rice is about 70% of the Japanese diet as well. However, as others have noted, apparently what Asians eat in restaurants is not what they eat at home - which makes sense, as eating out is considered a treat in most countries. Guyenet has made the same point about French restaurants and the misconceptions about the normal French diet they have given rise to. In Thailand, however, nearly everyone "eats out" in small roadside stalls and basic unpretentious 3 wall restaurants, nothing fancy, so one can get a very good idea of the diet just by seeing what's available on the streets. Same with Cambodia, Vietnam, etc.<br /><br />People who are saying that rice is not currently an Asian staple and that certain Asian countries are "paleo land" are so utterly deluded by their own wishes and desires to be blinded to what is staring them right in the face. <br /><br />As for what Asians ate in the past, does it make sense that the traditional word for "eat" in several Asian languages would be "eat rice" if eating rice had not been the MAIN and DOMINANT food for centuries? I am no linguist, but as far as I know, so basic a word as "eat" is usually not of modern origin in any culture and usually has its origin several centuries in the past at least, it not more.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13667917314028595187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-67168110082890182482013-02-09T23:25:19.835-08:002013-02-09T23:25:19.835-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-44117229227512290352013-02-08T22:11:04.768-08:002013-02-08T22:11:04.768-08:00No, asians did not eat white rice en masse until r...No, asians did not eat white rice en masse until recently. They ate brown rice. Historically only the wealthy could afford the more expensive white rice. But since most asians nowadays look forward to escape fromt a past of poverty, brown rice are scorned. Which is tragic.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14459218811126173579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-2865734778465338622013-01-16T17:33:55.688-08:002013-01-16T17:33:55.688-08:00My family originate from Northern Bangladesh. From...My family originate from Northern Bangladesh. From information from family members dating to at least the late 19th century, rice has very much been a staple for a very long time. In my parents lifetime pounding rice manually to de-husk it was common, as it was cost money and time to take your rice to a town to get it polished. Even today people still do it manually for the same reasons, Asia has always been full of poor subsidence farmers and labourers who dont own any land (Feudal systems that go back thousands of years). Getting your rice professionally cleaned was and still is an unnecessary expense in many situations.This does not stop rice being the staple and I expect never has.<br /><br />There are other native starch options like Taro/Arvi that get overlooked though. deadlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09699544048813060901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-46959407087905969602012-11-14T19:06:56.663-08:002012-11-14T19:06:56.663-08:00Great comment Rosa! Makes a lot of sense...I'v...Great comment Rosa! Makes a lot of sense...I've lived in China for about 3 years, and since returning to America have become very interested in nutrition. Western Med is all about whole grains, and there is a lot of good evidence out there to support that, but it's always best in my view to see how people used to eat in the past to guide future research...Greg Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08114576962795515116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-77996058128405223122012-08-28T06:16:01.097-07:002012-08-28T06:16:01.097-07:00That being said, rice was not a grain native to Ko...That being said, rice was not a grain native to Korea. I believe prior to rice consumption, millet/sorghum was the major grain in Korea. I'm not sure whether it is millet/sorghum because the Korean word for it "Soo-Soo" means both millet and sorghum. And what we ate prior to eating grains remains a mystery to me. Buckwheat was also a big grain to Korea.<br /><br />I believe that before Korea became such a rich nation, many people had to eat whole grains "jabkok" while the rich could afford white rice. However, there was a point in time, when Korean children in schools had their lunchboxes inspected. Kids with white rice in their lunchboxes were often scolded/beaten, blamed for the poverty of those who were lesser off than them. All kids must bring multi-grain rice. Meals back then were primarily just multi-grain rice with some beans mixed in the rice, and kimchi (fermented cabbage). A lot of the "banchans" even today were those that were served in the royal courts! The "banchans" that we eat today were probably rarely eaten in poor households. Some extremely poor people (in a certain province...not sure where, but it is known as the "potato province") also ate nothing but potatoes or sweet potatoes. Back then, potatoes were dirt cheap. Now, they are very expensive and highly prized for their health values.<br /><br />And if you look at the diet of Korean centurians, they ate lots of carbohydrates, low-calorie, and very low fat, pretty low protein. Eating Korean traditional meals usually guarantee leanness for us Koreans...you can stuff your face with it and not get too fat (although Koreans do NOT eat that much on a typical basis, key fact here), but now that everyone is eating at restaurants with MSG-laden soups, soybean-oil sauteed banchans etc, buying ALL their foods prepared, munching on snacks (trans fats laden!) very-well engineered by the industries, eating instant ramen, drinking beer on guys-nights-outs with crispy pork belly, and buying these ridiculously over-sugared, chemical-laden bread goods, Koreans are quickly getting fat as well! Do NOT be deceived by the low obesity rate figures...If you look at all the younger people these days, they are getting fat at an exponential rate...Rosa Parkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15191868550883172099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-7238806046867240572012-08-28T06:15:19.339-07:002012-08-28T06:15:19.339-07:00I am 100% Korean, born in Korea (although raised i...I am 100% Korean, born in Korea (although raised in America), and now I am living in Korea again. First of all, I don't think we can trust the whole "oh they barely eat rice because I've seen so in restaurants" because...those are restaurants. The meals that us Asians, particularly Koreans, eat in restaurants are DIFFERENT from how we eat on an average day at HOME. At home, most Koreans eat rice. Always. It is almost considered a sacrilege to not eat rice in a typical meal. Why? Because all the side dishes that we call "banchans" (small flavorful dishes of sauteed vegetables, meats, etc) are ridiculously salty, or spicy, or a bit sweet. That's why Koreans eat the rice to buffer the strong taste. Koreans do not eat a lot of meat AT HOME (key phrase, people!), unless they are wealthy. Meat is very expensive in Korea. If you want cheap meat, then you'd have to buy the stinky ones laden with antibiotics/hormones. Koreans also have staple "soups" to go along with their meals. A small bowl of "doenjang" (fermented soy) is a common one. People make many variations on this fermented soy soup, such as ones with tofu, or seafood, or spinach, etc. <br /><br />However, restaurant food is a different story. There are lots of "gogi" (meat) restaurants, where you just buy a platter of fresh pork belly, beef ribs, etc and grill it yourself, and wrap it with vegetables. There, rice tends to be optional, and people naturally just don't eat too much of it because of the larger portions of meat. Also, there are "course" options in restaurants, where people eat several different courses of flavorful dishes. Because they are eating so much, naturally, rice or the "shiksa" comes LAST with an option of "doenjang" soup...although most people like to pass on that option because they are so full from eating all the other courses! But go to any old Korean public cafeterias: lots of rice (bigger you are, the more), a bowl of low-calorie soup (usually skimps on meat because it is expensive), some kind of kimchi, a very small meat side dish, and one more vegetable side dish. That is the typical Korean meal.<br /><br />The people who say Koreans eat "small amounts of rice" or even Chinese/Japanese are ridiculous, and deluded by the whole low carb thing. Look, we eat a lot of rice. And even though the portions of rice don't look that big to you guys, the calorie count of rice in Korea is actually higher than the rice you guys eat in the Western World. Our rice is starchier. 210 g of white rice is 313 calories in Korea. I'm guessing about 100 calories more than white rice in the Western World. A large part of our calories come from white rice. Often, bone broths, very big meat dishes, etc come when we go out to restaurants, visit grandparents in the country who like to cook feasts for their children, or want to wrap up a stressful week with a treat in the weekend.Rosa Parkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15191868550883172099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-2107025365490485242012-06-11T10:34:33.439-07:002012-06-11T10:34:33.439-07:00Charles Mann's "1492" had quite an i...Charles Mann's "1492" had quite an indepth chapter on asian food/culture. His book is about the world wide changes (political, social/cultural, environmental) that took place after the new world was "discovered". Worth noting is the fact that there was no sweet potato in Asia until it came there from S. America. Also, politics and turf battles had huge implications for regional food options. He has another book "1491", which I have not read (about the world before America's opened up). Mann is widely respected researcher/author and well published (numerous awards). His books are extensively referenced (not for the faint of heart in terms of detail and length). He might be a good resource.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18009142431335328870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-1427193673850385712010-12-16T02:25:02.822-08:002010-12-16T02:25:02.822-08:00Hi, Stephen,
FYI: just add another data point.
a...Hi, Stephen,<br /><br />FYI: just add another data point.<br /><br />according to my friends who just came back from Tibet:<br /><br />the traditional diet is "almost devoid of vegetables & fruits" (naturally, not much grows there).<br /><br />lamb, beef, dairy & some kind of barley (or coix?) are the main food, very simple.<br /><br />most Tibetians seem content & healthy.<br /><br />(It's a shame that Dr. Price did not study the Chinese diet. <br />so now i have to defend against those believers in the "China Study". & those include few of my own people.)<br /><br />regards,<br /><br />pamDr. Curmudgeon Geehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14484363083738134100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-77126061610047302002010-09-08T18:45:26.894-07:002010-09-08T18:45:26.894-07:00Just re-read Pearl Buck's The Good Earth for a...Just re-read Pearl Buck's The Good Earth for a bookclub.<br /><br />The wife prepares special food for a celeration marking the birth of her first son. She makes it clear these cakes are not for the family:<br />"We are not rich enough to eat sugar and lard."<br /><br />This family lives in the north and often eat a bread "roll" wrapped around a garlic stalk or a gruel made of hot water and corn meal.<br /> <br />The book also describes them using their own home pressed bean and sesame oils. The leftover meal from the pressing is fed to the pigs.waterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14164346917947511229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-28030677866221834472010-07-08T15:18:48.331-07:002010-07-08T15:18:48.331-07:00The type of rice has/is changing in Asia - used to...The type of rice has/is changing in Asia - used to be harder - more protein - now is more gooey with a higher GI.karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490274388549702613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-2745462294046099742010-07-03T11:22:37.324-07:002010-07-03T11:22:37.324-07:00sorry, hit the return twice.sorry, hit the return twice.Dr. Curmudgeon Geehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14484363083738134100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-28609356779889481902010-07-03T11:21:48.614-07:002010-07-03T11:21:48.614-07:00hi, Stephen,
great post. thanks!
yes, in Souther...hi, Stephen,<br /><br />great post. thanks!<br /><br />yes, in Southern provinces, porridge with some root vegetable (usually yam) + small amount of white rice, was the staple food. the proportion of yam vs. rice would depend how wealthy a family was.<br /><br />my high school biology teacher said that she ate so much yam as a kid, that she developed an aversion. when the life improved after WW2, she never ever wanted to eat those root vegetables anymore.<br /><br />FYI: my colleague from a "poor province (his own words) in NW China said that of millet & wheat (in the form of sourdough steamed bun) were the staple.<br /><br />he said lard was not as common as in the south because "we northerners are poorer" so only rich in his hometown would use lard.<br /><br />I also wonder one of the reasons was that we traditionally ate _every_ part of an animal: cuts that generally are considered not "fit for Americans" (e.g., cuts with skin & bone still on the meat) ok. except the poorest of the poor who could not even afford cheaper cuts).<br /><br />one of my classmates in elementary school was from a very poor family; the only meat they ate all the time was chicken feet. then occasional eggs & liver or other offal. <br />(she also had crooked teeth & recessed chin. now i know why.)<br /><br />oh, in some places, every family would ferment their own vegetables, too. maybe that's where they got Vit. K?<br /><br />regards,Dr. Curmudgeon Geehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14484363083738134100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-43565312254201184612010-06-30T12:55:36.156-07:002010-06-30T12:55:36.156-07:00Paul,
I agree that the proportion of rice to the ...Paul,<br /><br />I agree that the proportion of rice to the rest of the meal is going to vary a lot based on income to some extent. The Chinese just don't seem to eat that much meat in general. The way I see it, the meat and everything else is a side dish to accompany the rice. Although meat is more highly valued, without the rice, the meal is considered unsatisfactory. If I had to guess, I would say most people eat at least 2-3 bowls of rice a day, money not being an issue. And when they're not eating a meal based on rice, they're eating noodles which typically has fewer if any side dishes. This is true, at least, for my parents who are from Southern China.<br /><br />Chinese restaurants also always tend to skimp on the rice for some reason. It's typical to eat double the amount at home.charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06502587057568527043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-84991307245423578302010-06-30T06:42:11.919-07:002010-06-30T06:42:11.919-07:00ochamocha:
I never meant to imply that rice wasn&#...ochamocha:<br />I never meant to imply that rice wasn't part of a Chinese meal. I've just had many meals where while rice was served, it made up a very small proportion of the total calories consumed as meat and veg were consumed preferentially.<br /><br />I believe the proportion of rice to meat and vegetables in any given Chinese meal is really a matter of one's economic status and personal preferences. The poorer one is, the higher the proportion of rice. I believe the the reason "rice" and "meal" are the same word is really a function of the fact that rice is served with every meal where as meat and veg can vary from meal to meal. Plus, as you run out of food, rice is commonly the last thing you have left to eat as rice can be cached in greater quantities and more easily than meat and veg. There is also a cultural belief that rice is necessary, not simply sufficient, for good health.Paul Ericsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02304863835806598978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-53169654481122694012010-06-30T06:15:24.195-07:002010-06-30T06:15:24.195-07:00The word for "meal" in both Chinese and ...The word for "meal" in both Chinese and Japanese is "rice", so my guess is that it's been the staple of both their diets for a long, long time and still is today, despite some of the comments stating otherwise. You can't have a Chinese meal without rice. You just can't. It would be like eating a sandwich without bread.<br /><br />I've also read that the reason for Japan's high population, considering the size of the country, is because it has conditions favorable for the production of rice. I can't find the source for this but it certainly sounds reasonable.charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06502587057568527043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-17698100228647982972010-06-30T03:21:43.648-07:002010-06-30T03:21:43.648-07:00I just found this in The Cambridge History of Japa...I just found this in The Cambridge History of Japan (1990):<br /><br />'According to the Myohoji ki, a late medieval journal kept by the priests of a mountain temple in Kai Province, the peasants raised rice, barley, wheat, and millet, but by spring they had usually consumed these harvested foods. After that, ferns and plant roots kept them alive until the summer barley harvest. They also ate fish, birds, and other animals when available. Food brought in from the outside, however, was limited to salted fish a few times a year.'Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-17481560690965681982010-06-29T16:40:46.009-07:002010-06-29T16:40:46.009-07:00Stephan,
Have you checked out the WAPF's artic...Stephan,<br />Have you checked out the WAPF's articles on Korean, Thai, Chinese, and Japanese diets? <br /><br />http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional-diets.htmlcassanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15175352693041879035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-83714621125061790772010-06-28T22:35:51.668-07:002010-06-28T22:35:51.668-07:00About the traditional Asian diet of average Asian ...About the traditional Asian diet of average Asian people, I don't think looking at modern middle class peoples' food and at restaurant food will help. I doubt that any agricultural peoples' diet will have been low carb. It's not like China was a country full of cattle ranches.<br /><br />I also think the term "Asian diets" is misleading, it should be "East Asian diets"Hanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04026726739260407718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-91559168701494625532010-06-28T22:31:31.334-07:002010-06-28T22:31:31.334-07:00In a historical museum in Nara, they had tradition...In a historical museum in Nara, they had traditional dishes for samurai and peasant. The samurai dish had white rice, fish, vegetables, some pickles. The one for peasants was just brown rice and a little bit of pickled vegetables. But from paintings etc., the peasants health wasn't good. I read that they were physically inferior to the samurai, smaller, weaker, and their backs would bend later in life. Actually I've seen some old people in more rural Japan with REALLY bent backs (almost looking at their feet.)Hanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04026726739260407718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-61698659762098354812010-06-28T18:34:23.267-07:002010-06-28T18:34:23.267-07:00This Wikipedia article on Japanese coinage talks a...This Wikipedia article on Japanese coinage talks about the pre-16th century use of rice as a currency: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koban_%28coin%29" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koban_%28coin%29</a><br /><br />I think Samurai continued to be paid in <i>koku</i> after that time, but gold was preferred for foreign trade.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14873535163482290349noreply@blogger.com