tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post2703563289995432407..comments2024-03-27T23:47:41.656-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Ancestral Health Symposium 2012Stephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger102125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-32733763462026943172012-09-20T07:09:48.809-07:002012-09-20T07:09:48.809-07:00Hi Sanjeev,
I think it's more radical than tha...Hi Sanjeev,<br />I think it's more radical than that--all languages are nothing but socially-constructed meaning. So I understood one thing by 'reward system' before this clarification; now I understand another thing. Stephan can continue to use the term 'reward system', but he can't control the meaning inferred by people who are interested in criticizing him. It's not a matter of right or wrong; it's a matter of reaching consensus over the term's meaning among people who are interested in doing so. J. Stanton's loyal readers will accept his meaning; Stephan's loyal readers will accept his; a newspaper like USA Today could generate a completely different meaning for its readers.<br /><br />Differences in meaning are inevitable, and happen in every field. My mother is an expert in education; it drives her crazy to see the mainstream media's portrayals of good teaching. I'm an expert in the Middle East; I've had to stop reading about the subject in U.S. newspapers because it makes me so angry. I think you kind of have to accept how people's brains work, and figure out the best places to direct your energy.Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16723181503283776344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-53226221612020173562012-09-19T11:27:21.384-07:002012-09-19T11:27:21.384-07:00I commented just because I thought it would clear ...I commented just because I thought it would clear something up for the discussion that was ongoing above<br /><br />some internet experts are using the regular meaning of reward in reward system and they're mixing the 2 meanings haphazardly, regularly confusing laypeople <br /><br />That was what I wanted to addSanjeevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522727136330797375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-6132404570255519452012-09-18T06:55:10.349-07:002012-09-18T06:55:10.349-07:00@ Sanjeev and Stephan
"My understanding has ...@ Sanjeev and Stephan<br /><br />"My understanding has always been that the "reward" systems are intricately intertwined with the systems that provide pleasure, but the reward systems themselves do not PROVIDE reward, they PROMISE reward.<br /><br />That's the reason one eats more: these systems hold out the promise of happiness, satisfaction ... "something good out THERE", but once one eats that food that activates the reward system the promise is unfulfilled, thus one wants more.<br /><br />one keeps eating "rewarding" food because that food triggers more WANTING, but little satiety. "<br /><br /><br />This has been my understanding as well, is that where you meant to go with it?bentleyj74https://www.blogger.com/profile/10392630441060383111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-76718000932095766952012-09-17T12:37:25.079-07:002012-09-17T12:37:25.079-07:00Most languages don't provide enough precision ...Most languages don't provide enough precision to tease out the various specifics <br /><br />Keeping the historical names, like "reward system" loses casual readers at the get-go and leaves a huge hole ... critics that understand the theory can exploit these mis-understandings (and others like the circularity thing, or choosing arbitrary or confusing conscious/unconscious or brain/body demarcation lines) when targeting a lay audience, and critics that don't understand just muddy the situation all around. Sanjeevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522727136330797375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-63120338187456576122012-09-16T14:03:52.358-07:002012-09-16T14:03:52.358-07:00Thanks, Sanjeev--another helpful clarification. I...Thanks, Sanjeev--another helpful clarification. I looked up the Olds and Milner experiments, and the proposed distinction between desire and pleasure (wanting and liking) makes a lot of sense. I like your memory hypothesis, too--it fits with my experience in which I have absolutely zero memory of how unsatisfying it is to eat junk food. Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16723181503283776344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-35262539343701515042012-09-06T12:42:20.786-07:002012-09-06T12:42:20.786-07:00That's a helpful clarification; thank you. If...That's a helpful clarification; thank you. If it's any comfort, the 'reducing food reward down to zero' bit didn't come from the internet, but rather was my interpretation of Levels 3-5 of your simple food diet. It's not totally inaccurate--based on your arguments here, it sounds like reducing the role of food reward in one's diet as much as possible is actually a worthy goal (though I fully understand that others will use the suggestion as an excuse to dismiss you). I know that since I started reading your research I've been consciously trying to reduce the role of food-generated dopamine in my life and replace it with dopamine from non-food activities. <br /><br />It also makes sense that the results are so inconsistent on the role of psychological satisfaction in one's diet, as one's sense of satisfaction/meaning, is radically subjective. Thanks again--you're a star:)Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16723181503283776344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-27673913641621893772012-09-05T17:43:23.437-07:002012-09-05T17:43:23.437-07:00another thing occurred to me a while back, just a ...another thing occurred to me a while back, just a pet theory/proposal: the reward system has hooks into memory systems to motivate forgetting the promise so the promise can keep motivating.<br /><br />If the whole thing were connected up in a feedback loop that measured let's say the "amplitude" of pleasure/satisfaction/pleasure that was originally promised, and the eventually-delivered amplitude, and compared the two (promised versus delivered) one could quickly figure out what's going on.Sanjeevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522727136330797375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-48103771026695233142012-09-05T15:40:06.187-07:002012-09-05T15:40:06.187-07:00> J. Stanton's argument that psychological ...> J. Stanton's argument that psychological satisfaction is crucial to feeling satiated to be a powerful one<br />_____<br />Apples and oranges.<br /><br />Look up Olds and Milner's experiments @McGill and their descendants. <br /><br />Some of the behaviourists, building on Olds & Milner's work tried stimulating the equivalent human systems (there is overlap but I forget if hand if they're the exact same centres we're discussing).<br /><br />The patients that got those treatments (electrical stimulation[0]) felt NO satisfaction. <br /><br />[0] it may have been these experiments that inspired Larry Niven's "Wireheads", but he too got it extremely wrong. Sanjeevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522727136330797375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-27744011281260945072012-09-05T15:34:04.185-07:002012-09-05T15:34:04.185-07:00I want to clarify that I never suggested we should...I want to clarify that I never suggested we should "reduce food reward down to zero". It's frustrating for me to see my writing become twisted as it makes its way through the Internet. I simply pointed out that reducing reward/palatability<br />____<br />My understanding has always been that the "reward" systems are intricately intertwined with the systems that provide pleasure, but the reward systems themselves do not PROVIDE reward, they PROMISE reward. <br /><br />That's the reason one eats more: these systems hold out the promise of happiness, satisfaction ... "something good out THERE", but once one eats that food that activates the reward system the promise is unfulfilled, thus one wants more. <br /><br />one keeps eating "rewarding" food because that food triggers more WANTING, but little satiety. <br /><br />the reward systems MOTIVATE and only satisfy incidentally. When one reduces food that stimulates the "reward" system one is motivated to eat less yet one could easily feel more satisfied and happier and feel more pleasure. <br /><br />Gambling doesn't satisfy yet gamblers are motivated. Many freely admit they get no pleasure from gambling but gamble because there's some undefinable promise lurking behind that next bet. <br /><br />IMHO the reward system doesn't really make one want; wanting (one of the concepts JS concentrates on) and motivation can be two separate things.Sanjeevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09522727136330797375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-39888853644182018302012-09-05T10:53:51.178-07:002012-09-05T10:53:51.178-07:00Hi Sarah,
I hear what you're saying. I want ...Hi Sarah,<br /><br />I hear what you're saying. I want to clarify that I never suggested we should "reduce food reward down to zero". It's frustrating for me to see my writing become twisted as it makes its way through the Internet. I simply pointed out that reducing reward/palatability can be a useful fat loss tool, and excessive reward/palatability can cause fat gain.<br /><br />Stanton has tried to argue that we need a certain amount of reward/palatability to feel satisfied. It's possible that's true to some extent (at least in the beginning until adaptation occurs), but the evidence he used to support that idea was not convincing and didn't really address the point he was trying to make. <br /><br />The studies that actually measured food intake showed that within a meal, higher palatability = higher food intake. Very consistent. If you look at the studies that measured hunger, cravings, or food intake following a meal, they're all over the place and you can support any hypothesis you want if you're willing to cite the evidence selectively. Stanton took advantage of this.<br /><br />It is possible that some people seek a certain level of pleasure from their food, and they won't feel totally satisfied if they don't get it. Part of this is simply that we're accustomed to high-reward food, just like one becomes accustomed to having coffee and cigarettes. Getting a certain amount of satisfaction from food may be a good thing in the long run, but we overdo it today. Keep in mind that there's nothing physically or psychologically necessary about the food we eat today, since no culture has ever eaten this way before. If you aren't willing to put aside the most highly palatable foods, you will undermine your fat loss efforts.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-87900109372596761252012-09-03T13:16:26.258-07:002012-09-03T13:16:26.258-07:00Hi Stephan,
I agree that J. Stanton is oddly vitri...Hi Stephan,<br />I agree that J. Stanton is oddly vitriolic, but here's one thing he made me think about in his series 'Why Are We Hungry?', and that I keep hoping you'll address: our sense of satisfaction and desire to stop eating seems to be both physical and psychological. That is, we have to satisfy our body's need for nutrients, but we also have to satisfy our mind's idea of what a satisfying meal is. In this sense, 'food reward' can be used positively to get us to eat healthy foods. <br /><br />I get that the food reward hypothesis is actually pretty simple, but I wonder whether the low-food-reward diet you suggest is problematic because it seems to aim to reduce food reward down to zero, and thereby eliminate the role of psychological satiation. <br /><br />I actually find the food reward concept to be helpful in other ways in my diet, but I find J. Stanton's argument that psychological satisfaction is crucial to feeling satiated to be a powerful one.<br /><br />Thanks for all your work--you and Paul Jaminet have become the only people I trust in the world. I mean, about nutrition.Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16723181503283776344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-58317201124160763352012-08-28T03:17:39.548-07:002012-08-28T03:17:39.548-07:00Very nice.. I like your blog. indoor cycling cours...Very nice.. I like your blog. <a href="http://cyclingclasses.blogspot.in/" rel="nofollow">indoor cycling courses</a>ankushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454366896373602703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-60213097714925386372012-08-28T00:27:08.890-07:002012-08-28T00:27:08.890-07:00waw this is very interesting. I am happy to visit ...waw this is very interesting. I am happy to visit on your siteAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15523416516264700514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-9500953117279385552012-08-27T04:19:48.139-07:002012-08-27T04:19:48.139-07:00Joe Berne said:
"I wonder how much of the ho...Joe Berne said:<br /><br />"I wonder how much of the hostility directed towards the food reward hypothesis is because of the effect it could have on the paleo industry. If the key (or at least one key) to successful weight loss is eating relatively plain food with little variety how are we going to continue to churn out food porn blogs, cookbooks, and so forth? Your work is endangering the entire economic foundation of the paleo movement."<br />I could definitely see a<br />"Low food reward Low palatablity Cookbook" hitting the amazon best sellers. Followed by Low food reward Low palatablity cooking shows and maybe even a "Low food reward" annual cruise.screennamerequiredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06697237354178718673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-18527031988410120192012-08-25T13:23:48.614-07:002012-08-25T13:23:48.614-07:00@Gallier2
You look more than a bit fat in your pi...@Gallier2<br /><br />You look more than a bit fat in your picture, about a size 19 neck maybe? <br /><br />Thanks for insulting me so I could feel more comfortable in pointing that out. It's struck me as funny for a long time that someone who looks like you is advocating for a high fat VLC diet, but maybe you don't "eat your own cooking" as they say, or maybe you'd be Jimmys' size without your fear of glucose.<br /><br />It's not puritanism to note that most of the western world is getting fat because of cheap available food engineered to be hard to resist and that this is, in fact, hard to resist.<br /><br />Even for me. And that is the point. <br /><br />Everyone thinks it's about macronutrients or metabolic magic, but it is really about culture subverting nature.<br /><br />And neither I nor Stephan ever said a damned thing about the necessity for bland, fatless food for everyone. I eat plenty of animal fat in my home prepared meals.<br /><br />To say that some people need to "blandify" their diet to reduce its entertainment factor is no more of a moral judgement than saying some people need insulin injections and some people don't.<br /><br />But if my necktie only came to mid sternum after wrapping it around my neck I would go for a bit more blandness for sure. Have you tried it? <br /><br />Maybe you should before telling me to shove it....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-60326128184150533222012-08-25T05:42:55.554-07:002012-08-25T05:42:55.554-07:00Howdy dudes! Wonderful stuff protects it up.
Adeli...Howdy dudes! Wonderful stuff protects it up.<br /><a href="http://www.kenistylessupermanstamina.com/" rel="nofollow">Adelina Berney</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-14336060195447086772012-08-25T05:42:08.435-07:002012-08-25T05:42:08.435-07:00Your blogs and accumulation attracts me to arrive ...Your blogs and accumulation attracts me to arrive rearward again n again<br /><a href="http://www.kenistylessupermanstamina.com/" rel="nofollow">kenistylessupermanstamina</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-40534310092199480552012-08-25T04:32:33.964-07:002012-08-25T04:32:33.964-07:00If food simply being tasty drives one to overeat, ...If food simply being tasty drives one to overeat, then perhaps a bland diet is called for. For me, the only aspect of food reward that comes into play is the addictive nature of fatty carbs, so I avoid starch, which eliminates both the addictive foods and the appetite increasing effects of slamming glucose into the bloodstream. I greatly value the sensual pleasure of food, and the food I do eat is delicious, but my diet does not drive me to overeat. There's nothing inherently wrong with sensual pleasure; the problem is addiction to sensual pleasure to the point of dysfunction.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09092073414860334960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-1748779354063442142012-08-25T01:14:49.528-07:002012-08-25T01:14:49.528-07:00You know what , Kurt? Keep your puritanism and sho...You know what , Kurt? Keep your puritanism and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. What next? Cutting the end of people penises to avoid masturbation.<br />Meanwhile let me enjoy my food like every other Frenchman who would laugh you out if ever you suggested, bland, fatless food was any good.gallier2https://www.blogger.com/profile/04285836062429366578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-46277270903350121172012-08-25T00:51:02.982-07:002012-08-25T00:51:02.982-07:00Kurt Archevore
What you just said.
SlainteKurt Archevore<br /><br />What you just said.<br /><br />SlainteLeonRoverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01484097018449402128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-22211827042874998922012-08-24T19:32:23.541-07:002012-08-24T19:32:23.541-07:00Joe Berne said:
"I wonder how much of the ho...Joe Berne said:<br /><br />"I wonder how much of the hostility directed towards the food reward hypothesis is because of the effect it could have on the paleo industry. If the key (or at least one key) to successful weight loss is eating relatively plain food with little variety how are we going to continue to churn out food porn blogs, cookbooks, and so forth? Your work is endangering the entire economic foundation of the paleo movement."<br /><br />Check out the big brain on Joe : )<br /><br />I would also add that in addition to being threatening to cookbook generation and the manufactured complexity that is required to sell books, FR is extremely threatening to the larger cultural force that fast food and food as entertainment are really subsets of - the constant entertainment, short attention span culture of late industrial capitalism.<br /><br />People are seeking and routinely having too much mindless "fun" when they eat. This is a really radical idea, actually. Some do it with doughnuts and chips, some do it with bacon and coconut. <br /><br />Nothing could be more disruptive to an idea that everyone from vegans to butter and bacon lovers shares - the idea that everything we do, including eating, must be entertaining and fun and instant. (Aravind gets this and has applied the lessons learned to other areas of life, including digital life, as have I...)<br /><br />And then there is the threat to "man the hunter" paleofantasies if it is acknowledged that copious starches from whole food sources are not after all poisonous and that our needed animal products can include small game and insects ...... no clovis points might be needed for the whole lifespan of a human...<br /><br />Plenty of reasons to be really upset about food reward if you think about it......<br /><br />Stephan, thank you for your continued generosity and diligent work here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-89428963054246367572012-08-23T02:34:38.365-07:002012-08-23T02:34:38.365-07:00@EF
Cancer is largely a problem of non-functional ...@EF<br />Cancer is largely a problem of non-functional mitochondria, not of insulin. Have a look at this article about the remarkable effects on cancer cells of waking up their mitochondria with dichloroacetate.<br /><br />'Evangelos Michelakis of the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada, and his colleagues tested DCA on human cells cultured outside the body and found that it killed lung, breast and brain cancer cells, but not healthy cells. Tumours in rats deliberately infected with human cancer also shrank drastically when they were fed DCA-laced water for several weeks.<br /><br />'DCA attacks a unique feature of cancer cells: the fact that they make their energy throughout the main body of the cell, rather than in distinct organelles called mitochondria. This process, called glycolysis, is inefficient and uses up vast amounts of sugar.<br /><br />'Until now it had been assumed that cancer cells used glycolysis because their mitochondria were irreparably damaged. However, Michelakis's experiments prove this is not the case, because DCA reawakened the mitochondria in cancer cells. The cells then withered and died (Cancer Cell, DOI: 10.1016/j.ccr.2006.10.020).<br /><br />'Michelakis suggests that the switch to glycolysis as an energy source occurs when cells in the middle of an abnormal but benign lump don't get enough oxygen for their mitochondria to work properly (see diagram). In order to survive, they switch off their mitochondria and start producing energy through glycolysis.'<br />http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10971-cheap-safe-drug-kills-most-cancers.html<br /><br />Cancer cells should normally be sought out and killed by cells of the immune system, which can't do it if their own mitochondria aren't working well. If you want to avoid cancer, look after your mitochondria. They need micronutrients. Don't eat any food that has had micronutrients removed, however tempting it may be. Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18175128589806816624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-44309581420366582332012-08-22T19:47:21.264-07:002012-08-22T19:47:21.264-07:00I find the cancer/insulin connection concerning an...I find the cancer/insulin connection concerning and that serves partly as the basis for my moderate calorie, high fat, low carb diet. IEFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10285885395147273255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-53119118823056403232012-08-22T11:04:52.483-07:002012-08-22T11:04:52.483-07:00wow your very interesting article to read. I was n...wow your very interesting article to read. I was nice to be able to follow your articlesAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05544118954829685214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-67455346030922711872012-08-22T09:50:36.875-07:002012-08-22T09:50:36.875-07:00It would be important to include the vitamin D var...It would be important to include the vitamin D variable to every cholesterol topic as it has the mechanism to lower it. The latitude also would be relevant.Jorge Tafichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10854913624281778940noreply@blogger.com