tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post6585075447521274255..comments2024-03-28T11:29:46.845-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Food Reward: a Dominant Factor in Obesity, Part IIIStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger141125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-55071619130980623752012-09-10T08:32:10.719-07:002012-09-10T08:32:10.719-07:00I hope it's OK to comment years after the orig...I hope it's OK to comment years after the original blog post. As a fairly new cardiac patient, I've developed a pretty strong interest in this subject.<br /><br />I've never been very overweight, but have felt compelled to lose what overweightedness I had over the years.<br /><br />In the past I've tried both low fat and low carb diets and lost good amounts of weight on both. <br /><br />I did, however, find defects in the results of both. During low fat diets, I've usually developed hemorrhoids, experienced cravings for fat the entire duration and lost the ability to metabolize alcohol. <br /><br />During low carb diets, once I get past the sugar cravings, I feel pretty good...until I try to exercise, particularly endurance exercising. Although Mark Sisson, whom I admire, asserts, if I understand right, that eventually we become "fat burners" and will then not feel so low on the energy needed for exercise. I have my doubts about this.<br /><br />In any case, the above tells me that there could be problems with both low fat and low carb diets, particularly the low fat ones. <br /><br />So I'm very interested in Stephan's posts about palatability/rewards and simple foods. I think he may have the answer. My 30 year old daughter, who is in great shape, agrees, merely based on her own experience.<br /><br />Going forward, I've a mind to continue a modified paleo diet with an emphasis on awareness of palatability/reward, avoiding junk food and mixtures of salt, fats, grains and sugars, but allowing some starches, which I think are needed for energy. Sweet potatoes, potatoes and rice, probably, but not in huge quantities.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16214705536538830875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-32769910030360873402011-06-12T12:36:40.603-07:002011-06-12T12:36:40.603-07:00@Might-o'chondri-AL:
I'm fascinated by th...@Might-o'chondri-AL:<br /><br />I'm fascinated by the idea that an insulin-resistant person might be able to re-train their metabolism by hypoxic exercise.<br /><br />Do you think that underwater-swimming (without breathing equipment!) might possibly be effective?<br /><br />Thanks.montmorencyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879422255762834319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-83676305459144447182011-06-12T12:32:09.340-07:002011-06-12T12:32:09.340-07:00@Jack,
Congratulations on your good results.
Fro...@Jack,<br /><br />Congratulations on your good results.<br /><br />From a quick look, your carbs still look relatively low, so I'm guessing you are still able to deal with the amount of carbs you are eating.<br /><br />I'm also guessing you are fairly young. If you have lucky genes, you might still be able to deal with those when you are, say, 50 years old. If not, well, come back and report to us :-)<br /><br />(I was skinny at 20, and ate what I liked; guess what: I don't have lucky genes and by my late 50s my overweight was almost out of control. I'd say an excess of beer and fructose was my downfall. Eliminating those and most other carbs got it back under control, although I think I still have a damaged metabolism. I don't think reward has a great deal to do with it).montmorencyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879422255762834319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-44063543569740984932011-06-12T12:11:16.225-07:002011-06-12T12:11:16.225-07:00Stephan Said
I agree that low-carb diets reduce ap...<b>Stephan Said</b><br />I agree that low-carb diets reduce appetite. My point is that low-fat diets do as well, as do vegan diets and paleo diets. Otherwise, why would people eat fewer calories when they're not asked to? Studies that have looked into it suggest that they're eating to fullness.<br /><b>Endquote</b><br /><br />In my experience, low-carb diets do not reduce <b>appetite.</b><br /><br />They reduce <b>hunger</b> between-meals. I think there is a difference.<br /><br />I don't have personal experience of a low-fat diet, but anecdotal experience suggests that they are less successful at reducing hunger between-meals.montmorencyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879422255762834319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-12122844811530196912011-06-12T11:59:46.495-07:002011-06-12T11:59:46.495-07:00Chris Masterjohn said...
John,
The issue...<b>Chris Masterjohn said...</b><br /><br /> John,<br /><br /> The issue of how to express lipolysis rates and to address whether they are higher or lower in obese people, and to what degree they are sensitive to insulin, deserves a lot of quantitative analysis of primary literature that I haven't done yet.<br /><br /> However, on a very basic level, I agree with what Mirror said about the excess over capacity. A great deal of these fatty acids are getting reesterified by adipose, liver, and other tissues. This shows that lipolysis is exceeding the capacity to oxidize and utilize the fatty acids. Thus, lipolysis is not rate limiting for fat loss in obese people, and insulin suppression of lipolysis is not the bottleneck in the system.<br /><br /> Chris<br /><br /> May 22, 2011 9:24 AM<br /><b>Endquote</b><br /><br />Surely it just means (or could just mean) that the high level of insulin is "telling" the muscle cells to burn glucose and not fat, and so the FFAs end up back at the ranch. It doesn't necessarily say a great deal about whether insulin suppression of lipolysis is a bottleneck.<br /><br />Presumably it should be relatively easily testable in a study situation, the relative levels of insulin and FFAs in insulin-resistant individuals versus non insulin-resistant individuals. (And probably how it varies with diet).<br /><br />A slightly different question: would it be possible, and would there be any point in an insulin-resistant individual having his FFA levels checked? Are one-off measurements of any value (e.g. fasting FFA level), or does it have to be a continuous measurement?<br /><br />Lastly, a really naive question: Why are high FFA levels "bad", i.e. wherein lies their toxicity?<br /><br />Thank you.montmorencyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879422255762834319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-55002067349604819592011-06-12T10:35:47.314-07:002011-06-12T10:35:47.314-07:00Blogger Stargazey said...
Stephan, the fact t...<b> <br />Blogger Stargazey said...<br /></b><br /> Stephan, the fact that you are young and relatively healthy may be factoring into this discussion. You are still at an age where you can switch back and forth from glucose to fatty acids for fuel.<br /><b>Endquote</b><br /><br />Well said.<br /><br />The same can be said of those "exercise physiologists" who are so vigorously anti-low-carb.<br /><br />Taubes is a little older, and, dare I say it, perhaps a little wiser, and more inclined to be sympathetic to the middle-age, middle-of-the road overweight or obese. <br /><br />A pity though Stargazey that you spoiled it at the end by falling back on "willpower", and thus making it a kind of moral issue again. Taubes addresses this kind of thing as well.montmorencyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12879422255762834319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-59402324587457993162011-06-06T11:09:44.054-07:002011-06-06T11:09:44.054-07:00I have an interesting observation regarding to my ...I have an interesting observation regarding to my eating habits. I've found that there's a correlation between "being with someone and sharing precious time together" including, of course, eating and tending to eat more. When my husband came back to the States and I stayed in my home country for a whole month, I tend to "forget" about eating. I was by myself, and one of the rewarding factors had been eliminated from my daily routine: preparing delicious food for someone you love and sharing it the longer the more satisfying it became. So when I stayed by myself, I didn't bother to buy as much amount of food as I would when he is with me, and of course the variety of the purchased commodities also decreased significantly. I had recognized this and consciously held on to not giving to much attention to tastes and texture anymore. Naturally, I chose vegetables, made a lot of soup dishes and my PORTION INTAKE dropped down with two third of my usual when I eat with my husband. Additionally, I have to tell you that I'm a sports girl which means that I exercise at least an hour every day, and try to maintain the commercially so-called nutritious and healthy diet. I don't consume refined sugar at all, it's been attributed to my childhood family eating habits, that my mom is a diabetis melitus 1. I eat a lot of raw vegetables, am also fond of meat and hardly eat any bread at all. If I decide to eat bread, I make my own long-fermented organic loaf.<br />Summa summarum, I'm strongly convinced by my own experience that nowadays eating habits take place in a very strong social context and much less of because we are really hungry. Hunger or craving for particular foods manifest on a level where we are attached to unlimited source and variety of edible products that gives us temporary pleasure. And the most important thing is that we generally choose to stay in the "reward zone" to make ourselves comfortable or released from boredom, stress whatever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-48371166216879628342011-05-26T09:59:34.486-07:002011-05-26T09:59:34.486-07:00Before and After
...and I have gained an addition...<a href="http://paleohacks.com/questions/7058/share-your-paleo-before-and-after/28493#28493" rel="nofollow">Before and After</a><br /><br />...and I have gained an additional 5 lbs of muscle since I took those pics...<br /><br />-JKJackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03925820413280991430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-17007463593366306272011-05-26T09:56:43.950-07:002011-05-26T09:56:43.950-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03925820413280991430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-40069381051568299292011-05-26T09:50:34.909-07:002011-05-26T09:50:34.909-07:00Maybe you're just lucky Jack. Did you gain we...Maybe you're just lucky Jack. Did you gain weight on ANY diet? You probably have great genes for leanness. Some people do. For the rest of us overrewarding food leads to overeating and accumulation of body fat.TCO348https://www.blogger.com/profile/15972478226700429070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-45432374279383948102011-05-26T09:22:36.381-07:002011-05-26T09:22:36.381-07:00Yah this food reward dealio is quite a complex stu...Yah this food reward dealio is quite a complex study. From my personal experience, I suppose I don't really understand / relate to it yet.<br /><br />About 10 months ago, I switched from a "eat whatever you want but avoid HFCS and hydrogenation" type of diet to VLC, then LC, then "Lacto-Paleo".<br /><br />Previously, I would get bored with eating. Now, I basically NEVER get bored with eating. I LOVE food now much more. <br /><br />I love eating fried eggs in coconut oil with seasoned grass fed ground beef on top and sweet potatoes cooked in ghee with a spoonful of pasture butter on them.<br /><br />I love scallops wrapped with bacon. That combo will make you believe there's a God if you currently don't.<br /><br />I love me a nice juicy steak with a big mixed salad with some cracked peppercorns and thinly sliced dubliner cheese with lemon/lime juice as the dressing and a baked potato with pasture butter and chopped up serrano peppers.<br /><br />I thoroughly enjoy chopping up a half a banana and throwing it in a bowl, adding a handful of fresh blueberries, and dumping whole heavy cream over top.<br /><br />My point? I eat like this every single day. I feel very rewarded... every single day. Darn near every single meal and even snacky type meals in between. Yet I continue to pack on solid muscle, and not an ounce of flab. I don't eat grains, vege oils, and only sugars found in choice whole fruits and raw honey. I eat plenty of starch like potatoes, rice, sweet potatoes.<br /><br />Been doing this since Aug 2010 now. Is that not a long enough timeframe? (I'm ask this for real, not at all sarcastically.)<br /><br />How come I can 'reward' myself daily to my liking and remain fit, lean, and ripped?Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03925820413280991430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-85775555748837423692011-05-25T10:25:25.473-07:002011-05-25T10:25:25.473-07:00Karl,
I agree with you in principle that a meta-a...Karl,<br /><br />I agree with you in principle that a meta-analysis can produce junk science, but I think what you have is a small nugget of truth inside a much bigger picture that overall winds up not being representative of the big picture.<br /><br />If you want to understand meta-analyses well, the best thing to do is read meta-analyses.<br /><br />In general, most meta-analyses in my opinion are good, and they get better by the month, or at least by the year.<br /><br />A good meta-analysis involves blinded assignment of a quality score by at least two researchers, and stratification of results by quality. It involves stratification of results by specific methodological factors. It involves analysis for publication bias, and so on.<br /><br />In general, they are conducted by highly trained statisticians that are trying to root out junk science and trying to understand why different studies may conflict.<br /><br />That isn't *always* true, but "junk science" is not an inherent property of meta-analyses. They, like any other type of study, can be junk or can be good and need to be judged on a case by case basis.<br /><br />ChrisChris Masterjohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09922003080748568167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-58625165038936944542011-05-25T08:01:14.375-07:002011-05-25T08:01:14.375-07:002000 kcal "normal-mix diet"
vs
2600 kcal...2000 kcal "normal-mix diet"<br />vs<br />2600 kcal fat diet<br />http://www.scribd.com/doc/28131415/Kekwick-Pawan-1956-LancetM & Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295468760852417023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-83361441777459853592011-05-25T07:54:42.237-07:002011-05-25T07:54:42.237-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.M & Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14295468760852417023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-42551338609151511942011-05-24T21:52:31.780-07:002011-05-24T21:52:31.780-07:00Suppose there was a drug - that if you took it you...Suppose there was a drug - that if you took it you felt a bit better - but if you stop taking it you feel bad - weeks of adapting to the non drugged state. Opiates would be an example, but so are SSRIs. People treated with SSRIs end up down regulating post synaptic receptors - stop taking the drug and they feel bad 6-8 weeks for the receptors to re-regulate. A very profitable situation for the suppliers. <br /><br />But what about Wurtmans work at MIT? Carbohydrates also increase seritonin. Is there a similar effect? <br /><br />There is a body of evidence that suggests that depression is an inflammation mediated disease. O-3s are thought to reduce some of this inflammation. <br /><br />I'm thinking about this in regards of Leptins similarity to IL-6 .. is elevated leptin levels of leptin resistance possibly a cause of depression? And eating lots of carbs sooths the depression with seritonin? but further increasing leptin levels? <br /><br />It is interesting that several anti-depressants lower inflammatory interleukins - and some seem to reduce hunger a bit. <br /><br />I think the key here is to figure out the relative magnitude of these effects - some might just be noise - others a life force drive..karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490274388549702613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-85089325332957857192011-05-24T04:24:24.093-07:002011-05-24T04:24:24.093-07:00When I was looking at taste thresholds for uni, I ...When I was looking at taste thresholds for uni, I read a couple of studies showing that smokers eat less not because their taste buds are 'smoked out' (as commonly assumed) but because something about nicotine causes food to have less of a 'hedonistic' response in the brain - which is probably the same thing as 'food reward'. This was theorised as a reason for the weightgain that many smokers have when they give up.Sarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13047019163857835364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-42730922972794619772011-05-23T15:51:54.789-07:002011-05-23T15:51:54.789-07:00Yes! I saw that study as well. Food variety is a...Yes! I saw that study as well. Food variety is a factor-- if you eat the same few things all the time, they seem to be less rewarding.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-61162475183148006032011-05-23T15:49:13.972-07:002011-05-23T15:49:13.972-07:00I wonder if habituation could also play a role in ...I wonder if habituation could also play a role in rood reward. Most restrictive diets that limit whole groups of foods result in people repeatedly eating the same few foods or meals at least initially. Modern processed food supplies an great variety of foods to eat each day.<br /><br />The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition has an interesting study just out.<br /><br />http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2011/05/18/ajcn.110.009035.abstract<br /><br />Long-term habituation to food in obese and nonobese women.<br /><br />"Background: Habituation is a form of learning in which repeated exposure to a stimulus leads to a decrease in responding."<br /><br />"Conclusions: Long-term habituation was observed when the same food was presented at daily meals but not when presented once weekly for 5 wk. These results provide the first evidence of long-term habituation to food in women and show that memory of food over daily meals can increase the rate of habituation and reduce energy intake."Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00855003934699733126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-35089444437993341852011-05-23T11:14:37.860-07:002011-05-23T11:14:37.860-07:00Hello - Chris Masterjohn & Stephan
About m...Hello - Chris Masterjohn & Stephan <br /><br />About meta-studies. Good science is tricky and really hard work - (I have not looked at the paper you are talking about - I'm speaking only about science.) It is possible to craft a good meta study - but what I see is data collected under differing methods and criteria combined ends up being often miss leading rather than illuminating. Sadly, there are way to many poor quality studies and combining 5 poor quality papers with one high quality paper just ends up diluting the good study. <br /><br />And it is possible that one good study can refute several others. Consider diet surveys: there was a study out in California that basically showed that people, don't remember what they eat, make bad estimates, lie and that such studies are systemically flawed, yet they continue. Compare several diet survey studies with one well conceived and executed controlled diet study and <br />I'll take the good study. <br /><br />A synthetic diet study for the Apollo program showed the effect of fructose on triglycerides beyond a doubt. It should have sent off warning bells to the low-fat fanatics, but instead they relied on the <i>7 out of 22 country study</i> to base their claims at the peril of those that listened. (Keys (cherry?)picked 7 data sets out of 22 available.) <br /><br />The result is that the public ate less fat and more sugar - Medical doctors parroted the low-fat advise - I remember hearing from several MD's that there was nothing wrong with eating sugar. We know have an eppedemic of metabolic disease - in part due to junk science. <br /><br />I would recommend <i>Junk science Judo</i> and reading Ricard Feynman's<a href="http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm" rel="nofollow"> Cargo Cult Science </a> to better get a grip on what constitutes real science. <br /><br />Real science is not based on consensus - as copernicus could tell you. Meta studies seem to form consensus where we really need better, more careful, more honest papers.karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490274388549702613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-83984203211798591272011-05-23T03:52:17.674-07:002011-05-23T03:52:17.674-07:00@ Stephan (Or Anyone TBH)
Thanks for the great in...@ Stephan (Or Anyone TBH)<br /><br />Thanks for the great insulin post to Gunther. I too had that question!<br /><br />It was my naive understanding that insulin resistance caused fat gain via inhibition of lypolysis and an increase in lypogenesis. But you turned my thinking on its head, from what I can gather in your comment, are you saying that;<br />If the cells are resistant to insulins "glucose taking" action then similarly they should be resistant to its lypolysis/lypogenesis action? Which you demonstrate by showing that type II's still have high rates of lypolysis.<br /><br />That makes sense to me to an extent. Do you believe that insulin has no bearing on fat gain? Ie take a lean person and ruin their insulin sensitivity with low sleep/magnesium/sugar/stress/cortisol and surley their body comp will shift to fat over muscle? <br /><br />I realise that leptin is a big player in appetite and "bringing the calories in" as it were, but I always thought where those calories GO was insulin and insulin sensitivities job<br /><br />My little brain is spinning, thanks in advance for a response if you get the time,Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18213379638868650046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-69141558109014400422011-05-23T01:07:22.896-07:002011-05-23T01:07:22.896-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Andrew Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10376053090146785728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-39279193578158471962011-05-22T17:07:28.869-07:002011-05-22T17:07:28.869-07:00Stephan's article shows how complex the subje...Stephan's article shows how complex the subject of obesity really is. <br /><br />The Caloric Hypothesis is dead. it is much, much too simplistic to explain obesity. Science has turned up many new things, none of them behavioral.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-61877324743243899462011-05-22T13:23:36.545-07:002011-05-22T13:23:36.545-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Might-o'chondri-ALhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17572208303795253605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-64698694364538458242011-05-22T13:03:15.843-07:002011-05-22T13:03:15.843-07:00Hi Karl,
I think there are pitfalls with meta-ana...Hi Karl,<br /><br />I think there are pitfalls with meta-analyses, and there are also pitfalls with individual studies. I don't think it's a good idea to dismiss all metas as junk and then use a single hand-picked study to support a point instead, when there are many others out there.<br /><br />I agree that low-carb diets reduce appetite. My point is that low-fat diets do as well, as do vegan diets and paleo diets. Otherwise, why would people eat fewer calories when they're not asked to? Studies that have looked into it suggest that they're eating to fullness.<br /><br />My general impression is that adherence rates tend to be a bit better on low-carb diets than low-fat. LC may, as you said, be easier to maintain for the average person. <br /><br />I also agree with your point about sugar and MSG; those are highly reinforcing foods as both rodent and human studies have demonstrated. Sugar rapidly produces addiction-like behaviors and brain activity in rodents, and I'm pretty sure it can in certain people too.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-66590714417035857612011-05-22T12:14:18.954-07:002011-05-22T12:14:18.954-07:00@john
I get it now. I think the study I mentioned ...@john<br />I get it now. I think the study I mentioned suggests that diabetic people are fine at lipolysis.<br /><br />@Stargazey<br />Interesting article. It seems insulin's supression of lipolysis isn't as important as is being lean, because the FIRKO mice have normal FFA levels (unlike obese/diabetic humans), thus no lipotoxicity. They also have very high leptin levels. I don't know what that means. OTOH, in studies such as <a href="http://www.pnas.org/content/105/16/6139.full" rel="nofollow">this one</a>, researchers prevent fat cells from storing fat and the result is insulin resistance, especially in db/db mice, which overeat because they have a mutation in leptin receptors. The plot thickens! :)Mirrorballhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161981400749448898noreply@blogger.com