tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post7849708857038666846..comments2024-03-28T11:29:46.845-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Fat and Carbohydrate: Clarifications and DetailsStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-64871545588729225532014-08-17T07:38:23.847-07:002014-08-17T07:38:23.847-07:00I'm not sure if this is pertinent or not, but ...I'm not sure if this is pertinent or not, but I live in an area where an above-average number of people hunt for food (Vermont). They'll take a bear under a license, then eat the whole bear throughout the winter. This is a wild animal, and very fatty. <br /><br />So are smaller plant-eating animals that have thick or coarse hides and lots of subcutaneous fat. I think if you studied an African hunter's diet, you would find a lot of fat in a hunted animal's flesh. They capture small burrowing, fatty animals. They will eat the liver and the heart (including those VT hunters), both of which can contain regions of high fat. Muscle contains far more calories in the form of fats than glycogen (smart evolution: fat is a greater energy source for the muscle), including human muscle. A wild animal, including "lean" meat, contains more fat than meets the eye.<br /><br />We also evolved from Northern Europeans tens of thousands of years ago, who ate a lot of fatty, cold-weather animals.Bruce W. Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13719668307204334032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-50053208656043888732014-08-04T09:22:00.466-07:002014-08-04T09:22:00.466-07:00Hi Karl,
There is no compelling evidence that n6 ...Hi Karl,<br /><br />There is no compelling evidence that n6 or trans fats are more fattening than other types of fats. Rodents will get plenty fat on regular butter and lard, and most modern high-fat rodent diets are made primarily with non-hydrogenated lard. The most commonly used fattening rodent diet doesn't contain much sugar, and in any case sugar itself isn't particularly fattening in rodents to begin with. The best fattening effect is achieved when high fat and low-moderate sugar are combined.<br /><br />Dietary fat tends to be fattening in rodents, and in certain contexts it can be fattening in humans as well. I don't understand why that is so hard to accept.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-52413258905491443642014-08-03T11:21:30.664-07:002014-08-03T11:21:30.664-07:00@raphi
You bring out a point that is central to th...@raphi<br />You bring out a point that is central to this debate. The so-called-fats in the so-called High-Fat-diets in MOST of the rodent studies are not what their headlines claim them to be. <br /><br />The typical anti-fat study uses hydrogenated vegetable oils and even sugar as the straw-man. <br /><br />Any paper that uses any combination of: hydrogenated oils(nice for shelf life),sugar, increased carbohydrates and calls this a 'highfat' or "Atkins diet" is and fails to figure changes in O-6 is worse than noise. <br /><br />If peer review was working properly these papers would be rejected and should now be retracted. <br /><br />At some point the "everyone does it" excuse needs to go.<br /><br />I think there is good evidence that O-6 (and perhaps polys in general), trans fats (hydorgenated) are not 'natural human foods' and have serious adverse health effects. Purposefully confounding these, omitting the information from papers becomes politics and is no longer science.karlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13490274388549702613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-378539833655733482014-07-22T18:57:16.060-07:002014-07-22T18:57:16.060-07:00@ Morris
I had a similar experience. 15 years ago...@ Morris<br /><br />I had a similar experience. 15 years ago in my early 40s, I was getting pudgy, health and brain function were going downhill and I had problems like hypoglycemia and bloating/urgent and loose stools. I eliminated most grains, lowered carbs to about 100g/day and upped the fat. I eat mostly real food. All the symptoms resolved and my body fat % dropped to around 10% now. TC fell to 120mg/dl.<br />I restored my metabolic flexibility. Because I get most of my calories from fat, my body is in fat burning mode most of the time. If I skip a meal or two, hunger is minimal and no hypoglycemia. Since I have a sedentary job, I spontaneously eat about 2000 cal/day.<br />I do 14 sets of strength training every 5 days, and at 57, I'm BMI 25 and <10% BF.<br />Folks can bash LCHF and refute Taubes till they're blue in the face, but 'paleo' is popular because it works long term while making folks look, perform and feel better. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-77289042971626773582014-07-20T16:40:04.621-07:002014-07-20T16:40:04.621-07:00There is clearly a lot of variety in human metabol...There is clearly a lot of variety in human metabolism. Some folks thrive on high carbs - is there any evidence that those healthy carb eaters seem to cluster in ethnicities with deep agricultural roots (think Mediterraneans with wheat or East Asians with rice)? <br /><br /> I believe there is strong evidence for alcoholism being correlated with short time depth of agriculture, that would seem to explain why aboriginal peoples have such trouble with alcohol. The alcoholism prevalence within Europe would seem to mirror this effect, with late-to-farming regions in the far north (Irish, Scandinavians) having greater rates than the southern countries. Would long term farming also drive a population's ability to eat grains etc. without too much trouble? I believe the AMY1 gene repeat number has been shown to correlate with farming depth. Perhaps you could opine on this subject?Archiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12743022181845492875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-3133321248288591282014-07-13T16:40:23.086-07:002014-07-13T16:40:23.086-07:00Yes animals in the tropical regions are on the lea...Yes animals in the tropical regions are on the leanest end of the fat contant spectrum, but that leaness is variable between individuals, species and regions. The same type of game animals in southern Africa carry more fat than the tropical varieties. In addition, the hypo amount of fat is not that much of an outliner compared to other big body mammals like elephant and cape buffalo. <br /><br />It is well documented in Africa and in Yellowstone Park that when large keystone species like elephants and gray wolves are removed that ecosystems are dramatically changed. With the loss of wolves, coyotes and elk populations exploded in Yellowstone and the fauna and flora community had dramatic reactions. If you or I don't know the exact animal or plant community composition of Africa 50,000-250,000 years ago, then we can't just assume is it like is today. Today ungulates are common as African game, but that wouldn't have supported the much larger Dire Wolf, sabre tooth cats, cave lions that did in fact exist. Megafauna made the everthing different. <br /><br />I am not saying our African ancestors ate like Intuits, but the much higher body mass prey they had access then had more fat than modern prey animals that survived the megafauna die off.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-41872656969504136422014-07-11T08:40:38.861-07:002014-07-11T08:40:38.861-07:00So, something like bad diet for e.g. can affect br...So, something like bad diet for e.g. can affect brain activity & levels of physical activity also, no?raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-20644169167947880612014-07-11T08:30:24.566-07:002014-07-11T08:30:24.566-07:00Hi Unknown,
It's a difficult concept for me t...Hi Unknown,<br /><br />It's a difficult concept for me to explain in a short comment, but the key phrase is "supposed to be". We have a system that's supposed to match calorie intake with calorie expenditure, or at least get it in the ballpark, but in the current environment that system is overridden and/or altered by environmental factors.<br /><br />Inactivity doesn't make people eat more, but there is some evidence that it does reduce the ability of the brain to appropriately match intake to expenditure (such that a sedentary person might have a tendency to eat more than his needs, but not necessarily more than an active person in an absolute sense). In other words, physical activity maintains the brain systems that appropriately regulate appetite.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-60204200181646593362014-07-11T03:24:23.442-07:002014-07-11T03:24:23.442-07:00Hi Stephan,
These two statements seem to contradi...Hi Stephan,<br /><br />These two statements seem to contradict each other:<br /><br /><i>"Calorie intake is supposed to be unconsciously regulated by the brain to match calorie intake to calorie needs. The more active you are, the more your appetite increases, and the less active you are, the more your appetite decreases."</i><br /><br />And:<br /><br /><i>"The key question is, "why do we eat more calories than we need"? Physical inactivity may play some role in that, but it's definitely not the whole story."</i><br /><br />This unconscious mechanism that you are mentioning must be broken in sedentary people if physical inactivity makes them eat MORE, because from the first statement, if one leads a sedentary lifestyle, the appetite should in principle be down-regulated, shouldn't it ?Aegirssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09286194307810507615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-74651290811959083702014-07-10T13:01:53.045-07:002014-07-10T13:01:53.045-07:00By the way, this diet vs. exercise debate is a per...By the way, this diet vs. exercise debate is a perennial way for the news media to keep us watching. Personally I think it's extremely obvious that we're more sedentary than we were 100 years ago (though not necessarily 20 years ago), and we also eat more. <br /><br />Both factors probably play some role, but for me in the end it comes back to calorie intake, and here's why. Calorie intake is supposed to be unconsciously regulated by the brain to match calorie intake to calorie needs. The more active you are, the more your appetite increases, and the less active you are, the more your appetite decreases. You can eat too little or too much at any given level of activity. The problem is when your calorie intake exceeds your calorie needs.<br /><br />The key question is, "why do we eat more calories than we need"? Physical inactivity may play some role in that, but it's definitely not the whole story.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-125196404665317622014-07-10T12:54:06.711-07:002014-07-10T12:54:06.711-07:00Hi Grinch,
Yes I saw it. It's based on NHANE...Hi Grinch,<br /><br />Yes I saw it. It's based on NHANES self-reported calorie intake. There was another recent paper about how abysmally inaccurate NHANES data are for estimating calorie intake. Self-reported data are particularly bad for answering this type of question because heavier people tend to under-report calorie intake to a greater degree. That means the more obese the population becomes, the more people will tend to underestimate their calorie intake. <br /><br />USDA estimates of calorie intake, which are not self-reported, suggest that calorie intake has closely paralleled the prevalence of obesity.<br /><br />Hi Methinks,<br /><br />Congratulations for finding an approach that works so well for you. I agree that there is probably a lot of variability in what works between different people, but there are some things that are more likely to work than others.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-23135895479701292802014-07-09T12:51:20.596-07:002014-07-09T12:51:20.596-07:00I have the answer! Our obesity epidemic is caused ...I have the answer! Our obesity epidemic is caused by fat emulsified with sugar! <br /><br />Though that's probably true to some extent, I'm kidding, of course.<br /><br />Despite being an athlete and carefully watching my intake of complex and "healthy" carbs, my energy levels were crazy and I began gaining fat in middle age. And IBS was getting worse. Out of sheer desperation I switched to Low carb and very high fat. The fat fell off and everything else resolved. <br /><br />My cousin has PCOS and despite a strict calorie restricted diet she kept gaining weight until she changed her diet to resemble mine. Of course, our ancestral home is very far Northern Europe, so that may play a role. <br /><br />This is what works for us. It seems natural and pain-free for us. It's probably not for everyone.<br /><br />One thing that I wonder about is this idea that there's one cause of obesity. How much variance is there in the human population? Wouldn't a high variance make standardizing dietary recommendations moot?Methinkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17278490832490933652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-1584615061614242582014-07-08T13:02:53.557-07:002014-07-08T13:02:53.557-07:00Stephan,
Have you seen the latest saying exercise...Stephan,<br /><br />Have you seen the latest saying exercise is more important than calorie intake? I highly doubt the conclusions here.<br /><br />http://www.cbsnews.com/news/whats-more-to-blame-for-obesity-lack-of-exercise-or-eating-too-much/Grinchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09777059600105275295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-9505191883237804952014-07-08T08:06:44.945-07:002014-07-08T08:06:44.945-07:00Stephan--
I know that this might be off topic som...Stephan--<br /><br />I know that this might be off topic somewhat, but I have a question about bodybuilding nutrition. From what I have seen/read on the internet a physique athlete would want to have high protein/carbs and low fat intake. With taking in thousands of calories why would having a lower fat approach be beneficial in this situation?adminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06222524371754170169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-74369310813025515052014-07-06T03:40:59.081-07:002014-07-06T03:40:59.081-07:00Hi Stefan,
"The body oxidizes fuels in a hi...Hi Stefan, <br /><br />"The body oxidizes fuels in a hierarchy based on its storage capacity for each. Ethanol is burned before (excess) amino acids, which are burned before carbohydrate, which is burned before fat. The body can't store ethanol and can scarcely store excess amino acids so it has to burn them right away. It can store some carbohydrate, so that's next."<br /><br />I think I understand the carb storing part, please correct me if Im wrong.<br /> Muscle glycogen (max ~400gr) depletes with certain type of exercises and cannot exit the muscles. Liver glycogen (max ~90gr) goes down automatically even sleeping. If we ingest glucose and our storage capacity is already used, we mostly turn that glucose into palmitic acid instead of storing it (muscle glycogen repletion is somewhat slow though). If we eat fructose and the liver is "empty", only up to ~50% the fructose can turn into liver glycogen.<br /><br /> Is there an analogous story for "excess amino acids"? What does it mean "excess amino acids"?<br /><br /> Sergiohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15111778866443923746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-43604039254698751722014-07-03T17:13:38.796-07:002014-07-03T17:13:38.796-07:00Stephan,
Thanks for the responses. You're rig...Stephan,<br /><br />Thanks for the responses. You're right, preferential isn't really a good term to use here. What an interesting topic.<br /><br />raphi,<br /><br />I'll check out those links, thanks!Daniel Bradleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15032795927390189228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-82751952303891685202014-07-02T16:43:14.635-07:002014-07-02T16:43:14.635-07:00Hi Grinch and Scott Sterling :
I will try to ans...Hi Grinch and Scott Sterling :<br /><br />I will try to answer. :)<br /><br />I think that, in general, the Blogosphere ( * this does NOT apply to Stephan)is asking the wrong questions. We have to ask the right questions, in science, as Isaac Newton said. <br /><br />Contrary to what is often said, testable , predictive theories did NOT lead to progress, nor the Scientific Revolution. Any crank can say the sun will burn out next Tuesday and has a testable idea.<br /><br />Being shown wrong by observation and experiment and changing your theory accordingly STILL will not get somebody one jot closer to understanding a given phenomena if certain criteria is not present. This did not open the intellectual prison gates either.... It does not even matter of something is testable if certain criteria is not present. I will expound on that later. yes, testability is necessary, HOWEVER, it is not nearly sufficient. It's not good enough.<br /><br />Genetic studies have shown that the particular set of weight-regulating genes that a person has is by far the most important factor in determining how much that person will weigh. None of this "contradicts the first law of thermodynamics" in any way, shape or form, as so many Bloggers erroneously claim based on their faulty understanding. It is more appropriate for a naturally thin person to thank their thin genes than to stigmatize the obese.I have confirmed this with about 40 different scientists from places like M.I.T., CalTech, Harvard and Cambridge over the last 6 years.<br /><br /><br /><br />Science is about figuring out how we are wrong. Most amateurs dramatically overstate science. Science has strength and it is wonderful. BUT, science has flaws and weaknesses- like all human creations and endeavors.We need humility. We should not assume we know everything. For instance, here is an example of the limitations of science : There may have been very, very important observables 5 billion years ago that we missed. We may be forever limited in what we can even know and the questions we can even ask because of this.<br /><br />I think the Blogosphere MUST get out of the mindset of asking "What cheese the Moon is made of." My own 1998 beliefs and misconceptions about obesity were challenged over the last 6 years. I now realize that I was wrong and have forced my views to conform with evidence from reality no matter how painful.This is what Saul Perlmutter stresses. I think we need to channel Einstein and get very creative. We need to think about this problem like we have never seen it before to some degree. Feynman and Einstein both recommended this approach top science and you can use it in various disciplines.<br /><br /> What is taught in science textbooks in 6th grade is pure unadulterated nonsense and not how scientists conduct their work. There is no such thing as "The Scientific Method." This phrase is an insult to scientists everywhere. it is a disgrace and a travesty and inaccurate. Scientists use literally thousands of methods and they are all different. It is the greatest most persistent myth around. Science textbook writers and the Blogosphere are the most egregious promoters of science myths and misinformation.<br /><br /><br />What we need is a much deeper understanding of obesity at the molecular level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-60221673179898852372014-07-02T16:15:01.976-07:002014-07-02T16:15:01.976-07:00Good Fats/Bad Fats
Stephan,
In a lot of earlier ...Good Fats/Bad Fats<br /><br />Stephan,<br /><br />In a lot of earlier posts, there seemed to be a positive spin on animal fat: fat-soluble vitamin; Vitamin K2; eating organ meat, especially liver; and the benefits of whole and/or non-homogenized milk, for example. You definitely seemed to prefer animal fats to those from industrial seed oils.<br /><br />Is fat still good, the right type, but in moderation, or have you revised your earlier positions?David Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13048263385951483824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-28218437640421003752014-07-02T16:10:49.762-07:002014-07-02T16:10:49.762-07:00Here are two alleged scenarios where eating a high...Here are two alleged scenarios where eating a high protein/minimal fat diet has led to body wasting and even death:<br /> <br />1) Into the Wild tells a story of an isolated camper who dies after feeding only on lean game. The result is that his body weight diminishes to the point that he is a skeleton. However, there was plant poisoning also going on, so the inference can't be total.<br /> <br />2) The Donner Party. They began to live off of dead individuals who had minimal fat. The remaining living individuals also died of being too lean.<br /> <br />Your thoughts?David Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13048263385951483824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-58793166525997405822014-07-02T09:23:41.631-07:002014-07-02T09:23:41.631-07:00I would be interested in hearing from commenters a...I would be interested in hearing from commenters and Stephan if you think the following statement would be accurate and would greatly simplify this very complex subject:<br /><br />"Almost no one would have a weight or hunger problem if...<br />-You eat real food only, with any mix of macronutrients<br />-You get on a proper sleep cycle<br />-And you regularly commune with other humans."<br /><br />Thoughts?Scott Sterlinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07084665553971108335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-80992736854795634682014-07-02T05:20:26.538-07:002014-07-02T05:20:26.538-07:00@Daniel Bradley
I agree with Stephan's descri...@Daniel Bradley<br /><br />I agree with Stephan's description of fuel usage.<br /><br />If you are looking for information supporting why I say that our cellular architecture is well set-up for fat burning (B-oxidation) then I suggest Molecular Biology of the Cell, 5th edition + Peter@Hyperlipid's blog & this very technical talk (if you're up to it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDDFV7Sovvs . Here http://www.mrc-mbu.cam.ac.uk/research you will find some help with terminology & basic understanding of what's-what. Hope that helps!raphihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-21619088620452388312014-07-01T19:18:09.335-07:002014-07-01T19:18:09.335-07:00I just wish people would stop arguing over whether...I just wish people would stop arguing over whether its fat or carbohydrate that is causing the obesity epidemic. There seems to be an overwhelming amount of evidence showing neither one in isolation can be the cause. It seems like it requires the combination of the two, but its more due to coincidence. All of the most palatable foods I can think of are high in both carbs and fat. I think its palatability and caloric density that matter as Stephan has been writing about for years. I think the diversity of the food is what makes it palatable to us, and we just have too much of the stuff available and all the aspects of the food that provide satiety have been stripped out.<br /><br />What I'd like to know is how exactly does food reward / palatability interfere with leptin. How powerful is leptin verses food reward? Anecdotally I feel an overwhelming desire to overeat junk food when I eat light for the day or workout, is that because of leptin or food reward, or what other hormones? I've read that leptin is a long-term hormone, so why do I get so hungry when I'm in a short term calorie deficit? Does food reward respond to calorie deficits or is that leptin and grehlin perhaps? That's where I want to see the arguments narrow in on.Grinchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09777059600105275295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-60824247669879452592014-07-01T14:12:35.889-07:002014-07-01T14:12:35.889-07:00Hi Christoffer,
I'm aware of that paper but I...Hi Christoffer,<br /><br />I'm aware of that paper but I haven't read it yet.<br /><br />Hi Daniel,<br /><br />I'm wary of words like "preferred" that imply a value judgment. <br /><br />The body oxidizes fuels in a hierarchy based on its storage capacity for each. Ethanol is burned before (excess) amino acids, which are burned before carbohydrate, which is burned before fat. The body can't store ethanol and can scarcely store excess amino acids so it has to burn them right away. It can store some carbohydrate, so that's next. It can store huge amounts of fat, so fat mostly gets burned by default when other fuels are unavailable. But the body is always burning some mix of amino acids, carbohydrate, and protein; the mix is simply shifted based on what's available. Insulin is critical in coordinating the shift.<br /><br />The point is that glucose is mostly burned before fat, but that doesn't imply anything about how healthy it is to run your engine on glucose vs. fat.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-23481040167719648782014-06-30T18:27:07.972-07:002014-06-30T18:27:07.972-07:00Morris
I think my post and situation is not too ...Morris<br /><br /> I think my post and situation is not too different: I have been consuming more saturated fat and less carbohydrate for the last 4+ years. More protein and no wheat. The result was an initial dramatic weight loss, followed by regaining weight, most of it muscle. Of course, the only thing I'm "religious" about (beyond diet) is exercise, which for me means tennis and weight-lifting (an odd mix, I guess). I think I'm on a Paleo diet. And I'm 69 now. My other thought is that the low carb diet is much less stressful on the insulin producing cells, particularly if Intermittent fasting is one aspect of all this.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13579689230767618822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-61781320973701752672014-06-30T16:38:59.194-07:002014-06-30T16:38:59.194-07:00Mike,
probably , it was also more practical to try...Mike,<br />probably , it was also more practical to try to preserve "the fat taken from animals later in the year" when temperatures were low, than to deal with the challenges high temperatures present during summer. <br />I found it funny that the pemmican preparation sort-of mimicked the situation with other preservation activities, like a sauerkraut making in traditional societies is usually done only when summer is over - the early summer cabbage is too soft when fermented, a fermentation during warm weather will result in a bitter tasting cabbage. Galina L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09156132815504279615noreply@blogger.com