tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post9061590532870072677..comments2024-03-27T23:47:41.656-07:00Comments on Whole Health Source: Simple Food: Thoughts on PracticalityStephan Guyenethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comBlogger137125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-9916203226661640102011-08-22T09:00:07.944-07:002011-08-22T09:00:07.944-07:00Hi Stephan,
I'm interested to know your opini...Hi Stephan,<br /><br />I'm interested to know your opinion on the role of natural spices and herbs in food reward. I know some research has shown significant health benefits from certain spices and my personal expereience is that eating highly spiced food, particularly when there's significant heat, results in saiety after a smaller amount of food.tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07928973723551208216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-57428422158238559892011-08-18T11:06:43.012-07:002011-08-18T11:06:43.012-07:00Anyone (including Stephan):
Do you have any exper...Anyone (including Stephan):<br /><br />Do you have any experience with sous-vide cooking, and would you recommend it as a way to cook meat for this diet?Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01186004124653419949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-1056310740223550422011-08-15T03:55:46.836-07:002011-08-15T03:55:46.836-07:00Very interesting read. The only thing I disagreed ...Very interesting read. The only thing I disagreed with - and found rather presumptuous and not fact-based - was what you said about asking immigrants about how American food is sweetened.<br /><br />Although it's quite "trendy" to complain about American food, and for foreignors to act like there's a huge surprising difference, I travel a lot and have been to most of the origin countries of US immigrants. The US is actually the only country I've been to where sugar-free options are ubiquitous. In Europe, the Middle East, Westernized Africa and places like Thailand, Korea, or China (the more Westernized Asia), I get weird looks for asking for my coffee, milk tea, or other beverages unsweetened. A lot of restaurants don't even have that option, as things come premixed! In China, it was impossible to find unsweetened bottled tea, except for one Japanese brand some stores carry. And in Korea there were Dunkin Donuts everywhere, with painfully sweet premade coffee. (My Korean friends tell me the standard big city breakfast is pastries at places like that)<br /><br />Furthermore, in many many many 3rd world countries, sugar is added to nearly every broth or sauce to make things more palatable (such as Thai curry or practically any Japanese recipe involving soy sauce bases). Portion sizes are also large, with the exception of parts of Europe and Japan. <br /><br />I think too much sugar is a world-wide thing, not 'American.' I think it's the fault of most people just not having had the opportunity to travel around that these cliches of American food's difference with the rest of the world persist.Emhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03348470968768731759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-74660976012380400582011-07-22T07:17:48.392-07:002011-07-22T07:17:48.392-07:00Thanks for your logical point, Harry. Reducing the...Thanks for your logical point, Harry. Reducing the palatability of hyper-palatable foods seems a more reasonable solution than going to a completely bland diet. Now that you bring it up, that hypothesis deserves to be tested.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-78647733368801434082011-07-22T06:42:16.437-07:002011-07-22T06:42:16.437-07:00This guy did a monotonous diet with "fasting&...This guy did a monotonous diet with "fasting" and lost over 130 pounds:<br /><br />http://youtu.be/7bYs57HsH80<br /><br />He doesn't recommend anyone do the exact copy of what he did, fwiw.Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11726695185559261264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-86098732441832064062011-07-21T11:25:13.299-07:002011-07-21T11:25:13.299-07:00Rap,
Thanks for these great quotes and references...Rap,<br /><br />Thanks for these great quotes and references. I think we are on the same wavelength. In my view you are absolutely right to emphasize the relevance of fasting/hunger. <br /><br />Of course Stephan is correct when he, effectively, says that not being addicted once you are used to it is still not the same state and experience as being addicted.<br /><br />However his repeated lukewarm agreement that "people do adjust to simple food and come to find it more enjoyable over time. And yes, hunger does make food more rewarding" suggests to me that he is not personally very familiar with the experiences you describe. That you can get extreme high g-reward / palatability with low r-reward "bland" eating. Whether we take this state of hightened sensitivity to be 'normal' is another issue of course but not a very well defined one.kulimaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13040793678914600188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-43877658534818499262011-07-20T17:53:29.324-07:002011-07-20T17:53:29.324-07:00Here's a point I think may be being missed:
F...Here's a point I think may be being missed:<br /><br />Forgive a philosopher his pedantry, but...<br /><br />If hyper-palatable (high reward) foods are the problem, it does not follow that 'low' palatability foods (low reward) foods are the solution. To think so is to confuse 'negation' with 'opposition'.<br /><br />In other words, the negation of hyper-palatable is 'not hyper-palatable'. On the other hand, 'low' palatable foods (i.e. bland foods) are not the negation of hyper-palatable foods: they are the OPPOSITE of hyper-palatable foods.<br /><br />Now, it is a logical error to posit that one must 'oppose' the cause of a pathology, when merely negating it would be ample redress (imagine someone suggesting that the solution to over-exercise was to take paralysing drugs so as to preclude any and all bodily movement).<br /><br />Now, this is not to say that low palatability foods may not work better at promoting weight control than merely 'not hyper-palatable' foods. But, this hypothesis needs to be tested. It does not follow naturally from the mere discovery that hyper-palatable foods are the problem.<br /><br />It may, for instance, turn out to be the case that, once you've reduced the palatability of hyper-palatable foods below a certain threshold, further reductions have no impact.<br /><br />Food for thought.Harryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04205398934164420457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-36482312157838316672011-07-20T13:57:05.056-07:002011-07-20T13:57:05.056-07:00Hi Stephan,
Yes, I have to admit, it is hard to im...Hi Stephan,<br />Yes, I have to admit, it is hard to imagine enjoying a potato as much as a chocolate truffle. Then again, the best meal I ever had was a dish that I usually found quite tasteless (almost bitter) but which I was given after several hours of exremely heavy labour. Holy smokes, what an appetite I had and it completely changed my perception of that dish.<br /><br />Here's another example of an eat-only-when-hungry individual who greatly enjoyed plain food as a result. This is Luigi Cornaro who, in the 1400s, became famous for having recovered his health through temperate eating and ended up living almost to 100.(http://alternativehealthcommunity.com/blog/luigi-cornaro-art-of-living-long/). He had quite a restrictive diet, though; essentially an early version of CR. But it does suggest that bland food and eating-only-when-hungry often go hand-in-hand.<br /><br />>>O truly happy life, which, over and above all these favors conferred on me, hast so improved and perfected my body, that now I have a better relish for plain bread, than formerly I had for the most exquisite dainties!<br /><br />In fact I find such sweetness in it, because of the good appetite I always have, that I should be afraid of sinning against temperance, were I not convinced of the absolute necessity for it, and knowing that pure bread is, above all things, man’s best food, and while he leads a sober life, he may be sure of never wanting that natural sauce, —a good appetite—and moreover, I find that, whereas I used to eat twice a day, now that I am much older, it is better for me to eat four times, and still to lessen the quantity as the years increase.Raphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08435219032869091692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-81906222131523401282011-07-20T07:31:46.597-07:002011-07-20T07:31:46.597-07:00My own experience with carbohydrate intake (of any...My own experience with carbohydrate intake (of any kind) parallels that of ItsTheWooo2. However, a while ago I did a blogpost on the effect of insulin sensitivity on the effectiveness of low-carb versus low-fat weight loss programs. It appears that for those who are insulin-sensitive, a low-fat/low-calorie diet works best for weight loss. For those who are insulin-resistant, the low-carb approach seems to work better. We may be discussing personal experiences that differ because some of us are insulin-responsive and some of us are insulin-resistant.<br /><br />Here is <a href="http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2010/10/insulin-sensitivity-affects-weight-loss.html" rel="nofollow">a link</a> to my blog on the topic. (I recognize that this constitutes self-promotion, so please ignore it if it offends you. Thanks.)Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-2200151328050337302011-07-20T05:22:23.371-07:002011-07-20T05:22:23.371-07:00Socrates was probably about 70 when he was execute...Socrates was probably about 70 when he was executed/committed suicide.garymarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13815261454130108955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-22068579683264216432011-07-20T04:42:48.383-07:002011-07-20T04:42:48.383-07:00@mirrorball:
the sites you posted don't seem t...@mirrorball:<br />the sites you posted don't seem to work - but I found the article here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21593492Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08714172233493373383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-24420481088516592452011-07-20T00:34:58.317-07:002011-07-20T00:34:58.317-07:00The Socrates stories are really interesting. I hea...The Socrates stories are really interesting. I heard he lived to 91, which must have been extremely rare for the times he lived in. <br /><br />I don't consider this a coincidence. His prescriptions for health were as useful thousands of years ago as they are today.gunther gathererhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15361732213105267048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-65240887225264362032011-07-19T18:07:02.872-07:002011-07-19T18:07:02.872-07:00I think self-discipline will really offer a big he...I think self-discipline will really offer a big help to combat obesity. if people, especially those who have a higher risk for obesity, will be more cautious on their calories intake then such condition can be preventedmisty mclarryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01886784712301638178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-69690688464208654772011-07-19T17:39:23.075-07:002011-07-19T17:39:23.075-07:00Hi Rap,
Great quotes!
I think people do adjust t...Hi Rap,<br /><br />Great quotes!<br /><br />I think people do adjust to simple food and come to find it more enjoyable over time. And yes, hunger does make food more rewarding.<br /><br />However, I don't agree with the idea I've seen several times now that enjoying highly palatable food is the same as enjoying simple food once you're used to it. For one, I'm not sure you will ever enjoy a plain potato to the same degree as a plate full of chocolate truffles, no matter how used to it you are. But I think you can learn to be satisfied by the simple food, which is not quite the same thing.<br /><br />But even if it's not a complete adaptation, there does seem to be some degree of adaptation that happens in reward sensitivity when food reward is changed for a long period of time. This adaptation obviously has a neurological mechanism in the brain. For example, dopamine D2 receptors in the dorsal striatum are downregulated during chronic exposure to highly palatable food in rats, perhaps as a reaction to increased dopamine release. <br /><br />The point is that the state of being adapted to high-reward food is not exactly equivalent to the non-adapted state. The difference between the two states is probably what drives the changes in body fat homeostasis, and D2 receptors may play a part in that.Stephan Guyenethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09218114625524777250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-64950257139825691462011-07-19T17:07:35.948-07:002011-07-19T17:07:35.948-07:00Just to add a historical note to this discussion, ...Just to add a historical note to this discussion, the following descriptions of Socrates' approach to food might be of interest here. Socrates was an advocate of eating plain food, and also of eating only when hungry. (I believe most of these quotes are from Diogenes Laertius’ “Lives of Eminent Philosophers”.)<br /><br />>>He used to say that he most enjoyed the food which was least in need of condiment, and drink which made him feel the least hankering for some other drink ...<br />>>He took only so much food as he could eat with a keen relish; and, to this end, he came to his meals so disposed that the appetite for his meat was the sauce to it. Every kind of drink was agreeable to him, because he never drank unless he was thirsty. If he ever complied with an invitation to go to a feast, he very easily guarded, what is extremely difficult to most men, against loading his stomach to excess. Those who were unable to do so, he advised to be cautious of eating when they were not hungry, and of drinking when they were not thirsty; for he<br />said that those were the things that disordered the stomach, the head, and the mind <br />>> . . . with endurance of toil for thy character; never art thou weary whether standing or walking, never numb with cold, never hungry for breakfast; from wine and from gross feeding and all other frivolities thou dost turn away.(from Aristophanes, The Clouds). [Does the "never hungry for breakfast" mean that Socrates tended to skip breakfast?] <br />>> [And as for Socrates’ state of health as a result of all this] He was so orderly in his way of life that on several occasions when pestilence broke out in Athens he was the only man who escaped infection. <br /><br />Thus, from the sounds of it, Socrates greatly enjoyed even bland foods simply because he was always hungry when he ate them - which I think anyone who has been truly hungry can readily understand. But what are the implications for food reward theory if plain food for Socrates was as highly palatable at the time that he ate it as donuts are for a modern day junk-food junkie? <br />A<br />lso, I came across some old behavioral research which showed that rats that are given Food A when slightly hungry and Food B when extremely hungry will choose Food B if later given a choice between the two. This means that the hedonic value of food can readily shift over time as a function of experience. Again, what are the implications for food reward theory? <br /><br />I suppose on the one hand, this suggests that perhaps a bland diet won't be so boring after all if what it does is lead you to eat only when hungry. (This was my experience with intermittent fasting; food became so much more enjoyable when I did eat that it helped motivate me to persist with IF, though I made no effort to restrict myself to bland foods.) But this then makes me wonder if the critical factor is not the taste of the food, but rather that bland tasting food increases the extent to which someone is likely to experience hunger before eating? Has this been properly controlled for in these food reward studies?<br /><br />Finally, as someone else commented, no one ever hears that eating bland tasting foods is good for you (I suppose Socrates recommended it but then again he recommended plain living in general), but one often hears that eating only when hungry is good for you. And grhelin (which stimulates hunger) seem to have all kinds of important metabolic and neurological effects. It is easy to see how grhelin levels and fluctuations could have a significant impact on something like one’s set point, but it’s more difficult to see how eating food which is spicy versus bland could have an impact.Raphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08435219032869091692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-46030810689703772082011-07-19T11:17:18.899-07:002011-07-19T11:17:18.899-07:00This new article seems extremely relevant:
Long-t...This new article seems extremely relevant:<br /><br />Long-term habituation to food in obese and nonobese women<br />http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2011/05/18/ajcn.110.009035<br /><br />It has been summarised here:<br />http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110719114340.htmMirrorballhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07161981400749448898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-70031245313897384612011-07-19T08:42:16.416-07:002011-07-19T08:42:16.416-07:00"I believe that we live in a culture of overs..."I believe that we live in a culture of overstimulation."<br />I have been saying this for a while. We have gone from simple black and white TV to many movies available in 3-D. I believe that the stimuli provided (in this type of entertainment) is inversely related to creativity in children, and hence in the adults they become. Addiction to sugar and salt have been proven, along with the subsequent dulling of tastebuds associated with the flavors. This is particularly a problem with diabetics who use sugar substitutes with a much higher sweet frequency than real sugar- it leads to more sweet cravings.<br />Thanks for the blog.Yaffi Lvova, RDNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17200963073105416585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-39503163734422655272011-07-18T22:30:26.443-07:002011-07-18T22:30:26.443-07:00Stephan, about super-stimuli, so you think video g...Stephan, about super-stimuli, so you think video games are harmful? What about other potentially addictive-like activities like intense music, movie-series watching, certain fiction reading (harry potter) or role-playing (dungeons and dragons) or other kinds of games? I've seen people spend hour after hour in such activities, often at the expense of other more productive, healthful things (like sports, studying, etc.), and react with severe anger or distress when such activities are denied, just as may happen with tv and video games. Are they super stimuli? Personally, I can't avoid feeling somewhat sad, and confused, since, besides the fact that I think video-games can be art, I have a strong emotional connections to many I played in my youth (just as one can have one with a movie or book), and is one of the things I love to do the most... And yes, it often takes quite a bit of my time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-13272731794905915862011-07-18T19:02:11.281-07:002011-07-18T19:02:11.281-07:00The theory is not totally worked out. That's ...The theory is not totally worked out. That's fine. I think there are some things that can be said about the theory. Food that tastes too good is rewarding even when only very slightly hungry. More plain food is only rewarding when the level of hunger is greater. When extremely tasty food is available many people will eat beyond their caloric needs but they won't do this when only relatively plain food is available. The exact mechanism doesn't need to be worked out to know that palatability is playing a big role in people being overweight. <br /><br />I'm not convinced that overeating is an attempt to meet micronutrient intake levels. Its true that processed food is deficient in micronutrients. However people who switch to higher quality food don't usually lose very much weight if the high quality food is just as delicious as the lower quality food that it replaced. I think they lose some weight but not very much. Another thing is that I don't think that anyone is suggesting that to lose weight you must eat only food that gives you no pleasure at all. I think the idea is that the less pleasure you are deriving from food the more sensitive you will become to it and so will be satisfied with less food that is less rich, sweet and salty and you will have fewer and less intense cravings for extremely palatable food. Less palatable food will start to taste pretty good. <br /><br />I don't think that there is any distinction to be made between palatability and reward. The reason that food tastes good is that it stimulates one's reward centers. That stimulation of the reward centers is also what reinforces the behavior. They are the same. As for food whose taste fades quickly in the mouth that is just a food that has an immediate intense reward but the reward fades very quickly. Wanting the reward to continue the person will quickly eat another and another to keep the reward going. I don't see how this means that reward and palatability are different things.<br /><br />On the supposed french paradox, Kessler (End Of Overeating) thought that the fact that the french don't eat between meals mitigated the high palatability of their diet. I think that their diet and the previously mentioned Thai diet are not as hyperpalatable as our junk food diet. I think that alot of people are reluctant to admit even to themselves that fast food and packaged snack food and candy really are extremely tasty (very highly palatable). You aren't going to impress anyone with your distinguished palate by telling them that Doritos or Yodels or McGriddles taste just about as good to you as anything else in the world but for most people its true. I think that's where the confusion comes in. Our junk food is not sophisticated but it is damn tasty. I just don't think its true that the french are stimulating their reward centers with their food as intensely as americans are stimulating their rewards centers with fast food and snack food. I don't think there is any paradox at all, only the misconception that their food is as rewarding to them than ours is to us.TCO348https://www.blogger.com/profile/15972478226700429070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-77664325379544372382011-07-18T12:21:36.759-07:002011-07-18T12:21:36.759-07:00Very good post you have on food reward and obesity...Very good post you have on food reward and obesity.<br /><br />Unfortunately, I didn't pay much attention to this in the past, as I thought it was a minor issue. I have to admit I was flat wrong!PMChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129394635417500849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-67404415345319815892011-07-18T11:25:57.160-07:002011-07-18T11:25:57.160-07:00It’s been known for a long time that if young chil...It’s been known for a long time that if young children are presented with a sufficiently broad buffet of healthy foods, they will reliably make balanced, healthy choices. “Primitive” people in their original contexts do the same. Many modern Americans do not.<br /><br />My guess (not original with me) is that there is more than one route to overweight, but one that should not be overlooked is simple craving by the body for a sufficiency of the 40-some nutrients that humans require for life and health.<br /><br />In an environment where so many culturally-accepted foods are so sparse in nutrients, it is easy to imagine the body continuing to give hunger signals even when calorie intake is already excessive. <br /><br />This would explain why a relatively small quantity of some particular food might be quite satisfying, while larger quantities of others would not. <br /><br />As a number of people have observed, it is strange and confusing terminology to call unsatisfying foods “rewarding”, but a food that provides a tiny, little bit of some nutrient for which the body feels an acute need, would be “rewarding” in the sense that word has been used here precisely because it is *not* satisfying.<br /><br />No doubt some foods for some people have a quasi-addictive quality, and that is one way that eating some of a food could lead directly to eating more of it. But another possible way is that the body says, “Ah, that Food X I just ate has a tad of Nutrient Y. More!” If Food X had lots of Nutrient Y, then a modest portion would have been enough.<br /><br />Take into account that there are in fact 40+ nutrients the body needs, and it is easy to see how people eating SAD would be constantly unsatisfied and constantly eating too much as a consequence.JBGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04335845681080553536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-39414293298088156872011-07-18T11:08:31.188-07:002011-07-18T11:08:31.188-07:00Woo, someone has to say it-- You need to cut back....Woo, someone has to say it-- You need to cut back...WAY back...on your participation here. Numerous extended responses to many people would be appropriate on your own blog, but not here.<br /><br />This does NOT mean you should leave in a huff. It does mean you should consciously cut back substantially on the length and number of your posts.<br /><br />One man's opinion.JBGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04335845681080553536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-35165585205497450452011-07-18T03:54:22.187-07:002011-07-18T03:54:22.187-07:00@woo
i was not restricting calories when low carb...@woo<br /><br />i was not restricting calories when low carbing initially. like you, i thought i'd found the end all be all of correcting my weight problem the first time i went low carb because initially, i didn't feel hungry on it. however, my body found a way "around" the inherent calorie restriction- especially with all the low carb processed food and technically low carb food being cooked in oils that leave the body in inflammation. <br /><br />i did at times do vlc. i am aware that in except on those 2-3 days a week where i hit 200-300carbs a day, that my 100g a day is low carb RELATIVE to someone eating a diet in which they are still eating bread and processed food with wheat, added fructose and high omega 6 oils. the thing is, on those days, 100g is all i want. i don't desire anymore than that because my body doesn't seem to want it- it goes back to feeling like for the first time in my life my brain is actually in tune with my energy balance and when i'm actually satiated.<br /><br />It's funny that you mention fasting and leptin sensitivity. many days(i'd say anywhere to 70-80% of the time) i eat inside of an 8 hour window where my first meal is at 11 or 12 and my last meal is 7-8. i got this from martin berkhan over at leangains.com. my body feels better on this regimen and i'm not sure all the benefits it has but there seems to be many including allowing my body to gauge when i am really hungry and i suspect it keeps leptin sensitivity high. also, most weeks i do a long fast one day of 20+ hours because it also seems to have a good effect and it seems alot of research is coming out to support my feelings on fasting. <br /><br />also the high carb days following short intense weight training also seems to be good for insulin and leptin sensitivity. i've gone off of both of both before but my body always seem to come back to them as the natural way i should be eating. i feel horrible if i consciously overeat, eat mindlessly or eat things that i feel aren't fit for consumption. i don't like that feeling so i rarely do any of those things. i used to think i wanted to eat like my skinny friends and never gain weight(btw, most of those skinny friends are bigger than me now. biochem catches us all eventually)but now i see that all i ever really wanted- and seem to have achieved- is to not feel like i'm constantly battling my body's propensity for adiposity.luckybastardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15559027346750047904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-47993876724698232582011-07-18T01:51:25.951-07:002011-07-18T01:51:25.951-07:00David,
the Kessler video you linked is very rele...David, <br /><br />the Kessler video you linked is very relevant. But as I said neither he nor Stephan uses the word 'reward' consistently, making their theories more impenetrable than they need need to be. (And they will be fairly impenetrable to most food addicts/people in our civilization anyway because they don't experience the relevant distinctions any more) <br /><br />So there is reward, call it g-reward or reward-1 in the sense of gratification, like in "we eat because of the expected reward"<br /><br />And there is reward-2 or r-reward in the sense of reinforcement of behavior as Stephan and Kessler both define it (but then they seem to forget their definitions more often then not and use reward in the sense nearer to g-reward/gratification)<br /><br />Palatability and satisfaction are g-rewards. But satisfying food for example is not r-rewarding, you don't eat more when you are satisfied. etc.<br /><br />I think you can't begin to sensibly discuss this topic in any depth without being mindful of such distinctions.<br /><br />I think many apparent differences (not all) between Stephan's and Kessler's approach are artefacts of these conceptual unclarities.<br /><br />For addicts reducing r-reward will inevitably reduce g-reward and palatability at least temporarily. That's the cold turkey part that Stephan appears to focus on. For non addicts and healed addicts a diet that is highly palatable (g-rewarding) but not r-rewarding is both feasible and desirable, --see your earlier quote from Kessler.kulimaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13040793678914600188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1629175743855013102.post-26052543100929142582011-07-18T00:30:57.922-07:002011-07-18T00:30:57.922-07:00@monica
I am not trying to say everyone needs to ...@monica<br /><br />I am not trying to say everyone needs to eat low carb, anymore than I am arguign that all people need to take haldol and thorazine simply because of an observation that schizophrenia is calmed by it. I would not want "normal" people with relatively "normal" metabolisms to go around eating eggs and bacon and limiting fine foods like potatoes and fruit for no good reason.<br /><br />But as you point out, moderate weight problems are not the same as extreme ones. I am an extreme polar end of metabolism and endocrine system, as is someone like luckybastard. We tend to require to eat diets which are abnormally low in carbohydrate. At 5'5 and 115ish pounds, 100 carbs per day is plenty, 80 is better, 60 is better still. <br />If I tried to eat 200 carbs per day, I ASSURE YOU my calorie intake would not be 1600 it would be more like 2600 and climbing. There would be no humanly possible way for me to eat 1600 calories while also eating 200 carbs. I can imagine it now, as I have felt for years and years. The fog, the depression, the apathy, difficulty moving, and a chronic insatiable appetite for food. Never is there a point hwer eyou get energetic, or nauseated. Just more and more hunger, more and more fat gain, as your insulin levels remain elevated and food has a one way shunt into your adipose due to that.<br /><br />The fact you can easily eat 200 carbs and keep your cals at 1600 suggests you are not glucose intolerant and you are not prone to being hyperinsulinemic, and therefore, your mild weight problem is different from my early onset morbid obesity.<br /><br />Also, when you say you felt "fine" on low carb, I can tell you first hand that there is NO comparison to the horrible shit way you feel while on carbs vs the clear, energetic, "normal" way you feel on a lower carb high fat diet. I am almost afraid of a "normal" diet because I loathe that tethered down, fatigued, dead, apathetic feeling. I love energy and mental energy and clarity. I don't miss severe depression either.<br /><br />In summary: not everyone needs to limit carbs... but I would guess that 95% of the time if you have a someome who is 300 pounds, with acanthosis nigricans, with reactive hypoglycemia, (if female) with PCOS, all clear cut disorders of hyperinsulinemia, you should probably place that person on a high fat low carb diet and see if these symptoms remit. They probably will.ItsTheWooohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12057537399918684119noreply@blogger.com